bosnia

[NINA]

LILY and GENE-Yeah, you are right Lily, it would take a lot of writing in order to answer these questions. I will be able to write you answers tomorrow because I do not have a lot of time tonight. JUst one question for you Gene-are you a male or a female? I read your post about being with ugly and beautiful prostitutes...before that I thought that you are female. Not that it makes any difference of course-just curious.
NINA

[gene_parrish]

I am a 58 year old male and not an avid reader so I was hoping that your answer would be short and simple -- leave out the details.
I think I understand the present situation but I am not sure how it came about. After the breakup of the Sovit Union there was a lot of news about trouble in Yugoslavia but I could never follow what was going on.
When Nato wanted to bomb Serbia I got intersted because. Nato had always been a defensive operation and now for the first time they had gone on the offensive. To me that is a very very bad sign; like Napoleon or Hitler. Nato has too much power and it is up to the people of Europe and the USA to reign back the power but I seem to be a minority of one among my peers.
We cannot tell our leaders what to do but we can elect the ones that promise what we want. At the present every President wanta be thinks we were right to bomb Serbia but I just don't get it. but that's another issue.
Right now, I just would like to understand how this mess got started in Bosnia-- not that we could do anything about it.
Gene

[gene_parrish]

I did some network researching; from American sources, of course.
1980--Tito died. Left five republics and two antonomous regions with ROTATING presidency.
1987--Slobodan Milosevic became head of Serbian communist party.
1990--Yugoslavia began to collapse and Milosevic somehow became leader of Serbia in a 44 month civil war.
Three religious groups.
(1) Croatians were controled by Roman Catholic Rome.
(2) Serbia controled by Orthodox Christian Byzatium half of Roman Empire.
(3) Muslims take over Byzatium empire and later Serbia.
Five republics:
(1) Slovena - probably Roman Catholic
(2) Crotia -Roman Catholic
(3) Bosnia and (Herzegovina?) controled by Austria-Hungry 1898 til 1918. Different Religions not purged.
(4) Serbia -Orthodox Christian
(5)Montenegro ? Orthodox Christian?
My source says that death camps were run by Bosnian Serbs. Were the Bosnians not Serbs? Were there Serbs in Bosnia that commited the crimes?
Mabe the West wants to protect the Roman Catholics, the Turks protect the Muslims and Russia protects the Orthodox Christians. Mabe a good time to be a Roman Catholic?
I came to this board with opinions but now I am reduced to trying to learn and it is interesting.

[serbia06]

GENE- you were right about rotating presidency- I think that the term for president was only one or two years at the time. you were right about religions in former Yugoslavia- plus one more republic Macedonia which is also orthodox. However, your facts about Bosnia are not correct. Bosnia consisted of Serbs and Croatians. Its first king Tvrtko was a Serb also. But during Turkish Ottoman Empire Serbs and some Croatians accepted Islam by either force or because it would give them a better status and chances for survival in Ottoman Empire. Bosnia is a name of republic and also name of the river-NOT the name for nationality. Before the civil war Muslims in Bosnia wrote that they are either Yugoslavians with Islam as religion, or Serbs or Croatians with Islam as religion. There is no such a thing as Bosnian nationality. As far as your sources for WWII and camps I cannot believe that you found that anywhere on the Internet. Or Americans are so disgusting to lie about obvious and well known facts. Croatian state at that time was called NDH- Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska- independent country Croatia. It is well known everywhere, even in American history books that they were a Nazi puppet state- they were fascists. They were Germans ally and everybody in the world knows about it. there was a concentration camp Jasenovac- death camp- held by Germans and mainly Croatians and Muslims. It was later opened for people to see and there were big lists with names of the people engraved on stones in front of the camp. I was there too for a visit. All names on those stones are either Jewish or Serbian. Croatians killed more than 90% of Jewish population in Yugoslavia-there were 60000 Jews before the war started. More than 90% were killed by Croatians. Of course some sources will give you different figures- Hitler agreed with everything with Vatican. Of course it was a good time to be Roman Catholic- VAtican had nothing to say against WWII and Nazi soldiers . they supported them as well as Nazis supported Roman Catholic religion. Check some books because any idiot can post anything on the internet.

[csockol]

Serbia06, WHAT is with you? You seem to be not only intelligent, but have much to say that is of value. WHY is it that everything you say must be prefaced by and ended with some NASTY comment or personal insult? You have much to share with those of us who are here to learn. Why do you always have to be so hateful? Do you always assume that everyone is your enemy? Or do you think that anyone who has not had your life's experiences is less worthy than you? None of us know the personal history of the others on this or any other "board". Who's to say there isn't someone here, who has had just as horrific life experiences as you? Why must you continue to "spew" when anyone ventures to ask a question or makes errors? That isn't the way to teach someone. Only by educating one another will we eliminate the ignorance which abounds! The reason, one last time, for most Americans on this site is that we're here to learn MORE. Not only about what's going on in the world, but about the people who inhabit it. Being Catholic, I know you'll find this one HARD to understand, but I AGREE with your factual statements about the Nazis and the Vatican. They ARE facts and no amount of wishing it weren't so will ever change the facts. The Hierarcy at the Vatican, which is an independant and soverign nation, held the same beliefs as many other countries' political leaders of the time, cooperate with the Nazis and everything will be o.k.. Not true, as we all know NOW. We must also consider the fact that while the Swiss Guard have very interesting and colorful uniforms, I doubt they could have withstood a Nazi onslaught, not sure here, just guessing! Since the Pope is the head of a RELIGIOUS state government, it is impossible to understand that NOTHING was done by the Vatican, as an entity to aide and assist the thousands being destroyed! Individual clergy, however is another story. Just as many Germans hid and helped many Jews, Gypsys and a multitude of others escape, so did individual "religious" who were living in and around the Vatican. As a Catholic, there is much to feel shame and atone for. But you must remember, just like any faith, you have the "worldly", that which must be delt with on daily mundane basis, then there is the "Godly". The "Godly" is that which any person of true faith, no matter what name that faith, or the name of it's "God", continues to strive for. Just like the "Inquisition" (how terrible was that, on a smaller scale?) and the "Crusades" (how many died in the name of God then?)before that. MUCH harm has been done by MAN in the name of God. Who says God wanted them to do all of these terrbile things? Man, through his own arrogance and greed interpretated "God's" wishes to suit his own aims! Man committed these inconceivably atrocious acts. Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Baptist, Buddhist no matter, we all bleed the same. We all die. As long as MAN keeps trying to prove HIS God is the best, the strongest and the RIGHT one, he will continue this path of destruction. That includes those who have no "heavenly" God, but look only to "Worldly" demigods. Get it together 06, you can continue to fight your way through life, hating everyone and everything (yourself included) or you can reach out and help others understand that, about which they are ignorant (try reading my posting under learning)! What do you say? TRUCE? Do you think you are intelligent and more importantly, mature enough to share your experiences and knowledge with others without the hateful, nasty, snide comments?

Cat

To quote from my youth, "Peace, Baby!" Yes, I'm OLD...
[This message has been edited by csockol (edited 11 December 1999).]

[This message has been edited by csockol (edited 11 December 1999).]

[gene_parrish]

Thank you Serb06 and csockal for your info, I will copy it and reflect upon it, in the mean time I am sending a previously composed post to you all.
Sometimes I like actually enjoy serb06's insults. It could be that Dr. Frueud would have something to say about that.
Gene

[gene_parrish]

Nina,
Since Serb06 said I didn't read the messages, I have re-read some of the messages and I picked up an important point first brought by Chase and carried on by you.
Chase had said that because of our lack of history that we didn't carry on hate against one another. That implies that we have something about ourselves that excludes hate crimes. I reflect on my own life:
I don't believe the North ever hated the South but the South hated the North because our way of life was forever destoryed in the 1850's. I grew up in the deep south in the 40's and 50's and of KKK families. Our mentality was like Serb06. We hated the Yankee's and the Blacks, and the Jews, and the Catholoics. We were sergated from the blacks. I was not allowed to drink from a black water fountian or use a black restroom; all this 100 years after the civil war.
I and all my friends changed over the years not because we were lectured or read some great litary work but because the Laws of the land changed to where it no longer paid to be racist. The Klan was sued, taking away the profits. If you refused to rent to a black your were fined. If you refused to hire a quaified black you were fined. The judges no longer routenly protected the whites and presicuted the blacks. The schools were forcibly intigrated, which I fought hard against.
From then to now I have changed from a KKK mentality to truly believing that all men have to be treated equal to make a socity work in peace. As a teenager I would glady have taken arms to anyone who said we should live in harmony with all people.
Reading this board helps me to understand the demons that live in my mind and to at last let them go.
The important point here is that when the law of the land changed then the people changed and not before, not even in a hundred years.
Gene