bosnia

[gene_parrish]

Here is the latest on bosnia from American news. Is it the truth?
Over all, said General Clark, the total stabilization force
in Bosnia will be shrinking from today's 34,000 troops, to closer to 20,000
by springtime. The American contingent, once 23,000, is today just under
6,000, and should drop to fewer then 4500 within months.

So what have tens of thousands of man years of American military and civilian personnel, and an estimated almost $10 billion in American financial contributions bought for Bosnia?
A country still politically divided, still economically devastated, still socially adrift.There've been too many massacres, too much bloodshed, for people to forget, much less forgive, in the period of four years.

The central government does not work. The central government is, by and large, simply a facade.
It is simply an ornament. It cannot throw you in jail. It cannot try you. It cannot tax you. It cannot do much of anything because the entities won't let it.
That's because Serb, Croat, and Muslim leaders want to hold onto power. A strong central
government might push for ethnic groups to mix, and might cut into the network of corruption, where huge profits are being made on everything from stolen cars from Western Europe to the transport of gasoline. There is growing pressure by Britain, France, and other European nations, stretched thin
by commitments in nearby Kosovo, to get out of Bosnia.

If SFOR were to leave tomorrow, the war would break out probably within six months.

All the peacekeepers had accomplished would be lost.

Bosnia's next set of elections in the spring and fall will bring in new leaders
willing to move ahead. If that does not happen, officials say they have
two options: Keep peacekeepers for what may be decades, or phase them out
and watch the cycle of violence start again.

Is a multi-ethnic state a realizable dream, do you think Ambassador Klein, or is this just
an American fantasy that ain't going to work in Bosnia?

Croatia is mono-ethnic. Slovenia is mono-ethnic. Kosovo shortly will be mono-ethnic. Bosnia-Hercegovina is the last place. And you have to remember, before the war, 30 to 40 percent
of the marriages in urban areas were multi-ethnic.

Right now, Ambassador Klein, Bosnia is burdened with three autocracies and one central autocracy
that also seems to be, at least by reputation, a cleptocracy, a group of corrupt thieves. First off, can that be straightened out before the next elections?

Not before the next elections, but we're in the process of doing that. The high representative
has imposed any number of laws. We're trying to build a judicial system.
What we need are prosecutors willing to prosecute, judges willing to try
cases. We're now restructuring a police force. We've demobilized from 40,000
policemen down to 20,000. Those 20,000 are now being retrained to act civically
responsible in terms of human rights, and not to say, you know, criminology,
forensics and all the other things.

[NINA]

HI GENE- unfortunately everything that you wrote about Bosnia is true. People still remember as you said all the crimes done during the war by ALL three sides. Yes, a lot of marriages were multi-ethnic. I also have cousins who are Croatian, ones whose mothers are Muslim etc. So what should I do-hate my aunts, uncles or even one of my grandmothers (my mom's mother)who was Croatian? It is very hard for people in Bosnia to divide. But they were too stupid to realize that on time. Even if Serbia accepted Republika Srpska which is Serbian part of Bosnia and made them a part of Yugoslavia, and Croatia did the same for Herceg-Bosna which is Croatian part of Bosnia, there would still be problems. But one thing that Bosnian Muslims did fail to realize is that if by any chance Croatian and Serbian parts joined Croatia and Yugoslavia, they would never be able to make it alone. They wanted to secede, they wanted independet country, but that is almost impossible. In that case they would have few cities in Bosnia and villiges,surrounded by "enemy" states unwilling to help them and with NOT enough natural resources and economic power to ever make it alone. They lived nice life while US, and other countries were sending like you said billions of dollars in food, clothing, medications etc. Now, when there is no help, life is almost impossible. Croatia and Yugoslavia will always be better off. Yugoslavia, now after 8 or 9 (I am not sure) years of sanctions is still better off than some countries in Eastern Europe with no sanctions and wars. But Bosnia just is not capable of even feeding itself. You were right, situation is awful. I still have lots of cousins, Serbs and Croats all over Bosnia. There is like you said basicly no law, no order-no government.

[NINA]

GENE-I am sorry, I am at work so my boss came into the room for a second. Yeah, also, I knew as well as everybody else in Bosnia and Yugoslavia that US and some other countries made mistakes thinking that people in Bosnia would behave in certain way that people in some other countries would. They should have found somebody to explain more the mentality of Balkan people. Unfortunately, they do not always behave the way civilized people should behave. I knew that the only way for war to end is to be solved by military actions. NO war can be enden politicaly, or in the office and conversations. Unfortunately, there usually has to be winner and looser side for war to really end. NOT at all cases but in this one-I think so. I knew that peacekeepers would have two choices: a) to stay for decades hoping that younger,next generations will forgive,forget and leave the war in the past and then leave once the country is build again, or b) they can leave now and watch the war start again. Unfortunately, that will probably happen if they leave now or soon. People knew that then and they know it now, but West did not believe us. Just like when NATO decided to bomb Serbia- Serbs did not understand that as trying to get rid of dictator and his system, they understood it as an attack on a sovereign state, as crime, as an attack on civilians. They saw destroyed bridges needed the most by civilians, they found themselves in winter with no heat and electricity, with no water etc. And what happened? Instead of turning against Slobodan Milosevic, they held demonstrations calling for destroying of Albanians, they wanted more than ever to keep that part of the country. Even people that before than did not care about Kosove, changed their views. Serbs never before hated Americans or US, but attack on Serbian "military targets",and "attack" on government provoked hatred for years to come. Hatred that will last untill the last one of the children( that were 3 years old during bombings), untill last one of them dies. They created enemies for life. It took only few wrong actions for almost the entire nation to change its opinion about once friendly US. Like you said Gene is this just one more dream of the West about Bosnia? Probably. Same things do not work for every nations. Like I think Chase001 once said (or somebody else) maybe the fact that US has no history of hatred between nationalities, maybe that is the reason why they are not killing each other in this country. Maybe, but maybe not. Of course history of bloodshed, rape etc. does not help at all. That is a big part of the wars in that region, but also many other very complex things. Like Lily said, Serbs are very proud and stubborn people and it is very hard to influence them. Conversations and talks obviously did not help Balkans. War in Bosnia is like a virus, sleeping now and just waiting for a perfect moment to attack again. Hopefully, that will be prevented but time will tell. So, Gene, yes, the informations you have are correct.
NINA

[Lilly]

GeneParish:
You stated that Bosnia was the last multi ethnic state....I respectfully disagree.

How convenient that Americans always forget that the only true multi-ethnic country left in the Balkans, is today's Yugoslavia, and Macedonia.

They have Serbs, Croats, Hungarians, Romanians, Slovaks, Bulgarians, Gypsies, and Muslims.
Every one of these individual ethnic groups have equal rights under Yugoslav law. I forgot the mention Montenegro, but I view them as a Serbian tribe.

Every time Americans want to vilify Serbs they mention ethnic cleansing. In the last ten years, there was no attempt by the Serbian government to cleanse any ethnic minority. Even in Kosovo itself there was no cleansing until NATO started bombing.

Prior to the bombing there were MUP (ministarstvo za unutrashnje poslove or policia?)units fighting the KLA terrorists. When ever the KLA was on the losing end, they forced their fellow Albanians in the surrounding villages to retreat with them as protection and cover, which the American Media used as proof of Serbian Forces cleansing the Albanian populace.

When their (KLA) only goal was independence, they didn't care how many of their own perished, and often paved the way.

Realizable dream of multi-ethnic unity in Bosnia - a fantasy?
Yes it is a fantasy, because after WWII, in spite of all the turmoil that occurred, there was a driving force to unite and build the country based on brotherhood because they were fighting the enemy from "without".
Today, sadly the enemy was and still is, "within".

Croatia is mono-ethnic (as you like to put it so often) because they "ethnically cleansed" (as I so often put it) the Serbs out of Croatia (Krajina region), with the help of "peace loving Americans" (They supplied the weapons, training and counter intelligence.)

At that time, I didn't see or hear NATO discussions on bombing Croatia.

I remain, LillyNomad

[This message has been edited by Lilly (edited 02 December 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Lilly (edited 08 December 1999).]

[NINA]

TO LILY and GENE- You are right Lily, and also Croatian army in Bosnia called Hrvatska Garda and another part of army called HVO-Hrvatsko Vijece Obrane-was financed directly by Germans during the whole war. Also, they were paid better by Germans than were American soldiers by their government. When Lily mentioned Krajina-200000 Serbs left the region within few days only. They were on the road carrying nothing but their children and clothes on their back, walking for days during hot summer and they slept on the road. Young children like babies were dying without water and food, old people and pregnant women. During that time Croatian army was advancing killing civilians backed by peacekeepers and supplied with weapons by them. But also, Serbian government or Slobodan Milosevic was in part responsible for it. He betrayed them. One of the officers I forgot his name got the orders to retreat leaving civilians unprotected. he refused and stayed together with other soldiers untill the last civilian left the region. thanks to him there were not many killed civilians. But if Serbian government did not betray them they would have been able to fight back easily. But Milosevic betrayed Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia so many times. US liked him at first while he served their purpose of betraying the Serbs in bosnia. Later when he did not continue their game they decided to get rid of him.
NINA

[gene_parrish]

To Lilly and Nina,
I respect your vast knowledge and honest opinions on the Balkins. I have questions but please don't overwhelm me with too much info.
(1) Who were the presidents from Tito to Slobidan Mislovich?
(2)How did Slobidan get in power; elections?, coup? appointment?
(3) Does he have a congress or parliment to answer to?
I have more questions later.
Gene

[Lilly]

You asked three questions that would overwhelm you with so much information because there are no short answers.

It will take several postings, especially question #2.

I defer to Nina's vast knowledge. Go girl.

Sincerely, LillyNomad