Dangerous waters

[Wendist]

From Nowember 7th to Nowember 20th a multi-national naval task force, headed by the swedish navy and involving units from the navies of Britain, the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway and the baltic states, will conduct a mine-sweeping operation in the Baltic Sea near Riga. This kind of operations has been going on continously for almost ten years now in order to make the Baltic Sea safe for merchant shipping.

These mines that pose such a threat were originally deployed by the Soviet Union as a protective barrier and was left behind when the union collapsed. The baltic states have nothing near the recourses needed to solve this problem and has therefore asked for international assistance, an assistance that several western countries have generously provided, Sweden f.ex. participates for the 10th time.

The russian navy however has shown no interest in participating, a rather odd decision considering that they know more about both the location and function of the mines than anybody else. It could also be argued that Russia, who formed the major part of the S.U., has a certain responsibility to help clean up today what the S.U. messed up during its existance.

It has been mentioned several times on this board that the possible incorporation of several east european nations into N.A.T.O. is a threat to Russia and that it is the conspiratorial behaviour of N.A.T.O. that is bringing it about.

Then why is Russia and its navy behaving the way they do? By not helping the balts Russia is more or less forcing them to turn to the west for help, not to mention that if Russia wants to be seen as a good neighbor and friend, this kind of behaviour is disastrous.

Regards Thomas

[Dr_Woland]

It's a very modest posting, Thomas - I would go further than you. I would say that if the Russians do NOT help, then they endanger the lives of everyone in the other navies who takes part - for refusing to share basic information about the deployment of these mines (types, locations, etc).

They must know where they are - because they themselves navigate these waters. To refuse to share this information is a miserable, pig-headed policy.

Dr W.

[The_Edge]

There is something called military tactics, Russia is still a target and can be targeted for attack my many countries that do not like it. The Russian military must have it secrets eventhough it may make it a little dangerous for others, but they have their rights to defend their country, and the mines in the water is very cost effective and effective.

-Edge


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"What is life without death, what is love without hate, what is happiness without sorrow, nothing"

[Wendist]

Hello Edge

I totally agree with you( and Dr W.) that sailing in mine-infested waters is a most dangerous thing to do. You are also right about mines being a very effective weapon.

But the question here is not wether Russia has the right to defend herself, which she has, or to keep military secrets secret.

The question is, how does Russia want to be seen by her neighbours? As an ignorant and incensitive military power or a good friend who helps out and can be trusted.

The mine-fields I am talking about were placed along the Soviet Union´s Baltic Sea coast which at that time streched from Kaliningrad in the south to Leningrad in the north. Most of this coast belonged to the three republics of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania who at the time were part of the SU.

Today however these republics are now free and independent states, recognised as such by the world community and represented in the UN. They are under no obligation whatsoever to be a part of Russias defence line nor do they wish to be.

These mines today lie in waters that is not Russias domain anymore, they represent not only a deadly threat to anyone who dares travel there but is also a serious obstacle for the improvement of these countries trade and economy.

Technically these mines are not Russia´s concern, they were placed there by the SU who no longer exists, but Russia could, with the smallest of efforts, make a world of difference. That is what being a friend is all about, is it not? To give a helping hand whithout expecting anything in return.

PS. If Russia wanted her mines technical specifications to remain a secret, the dumbest thing she could do was to leave them behind in foreign waters for NATO to find. DS.

Regards Thomas

[This message has been edited by Wendist (edited 23 October 2000).]

[Yaro]

Hey!!! Wendist!!! What mines do you speaking about? WWII was on Baltics, had you ever heard about it? There're hundreds of tons of half-century aged weapon lying underground and underwater. Not only our but German too. Do you know about German fortified zones coastwise, about storm of Kenigsberg (todays Kalinigrad) at those times? Once you read
"elephant" on the tiger's cage don't believe your eyes. Think.


[This message has been edited by Yaro (edited 07 November 2000).]

[Wendist]

Hello Yaro

Yes you are quite right, there is an enourmous amount of munition from WWII on the bottom of the Baltic Sea. According to one estimation as much as 85000 sea-mines may have been deployed in the Baltic Sea before and during the war, of these 30000 is still unaccounted for. It is also correct that Nazi-Germany had a conciderable part in these deployments.

After the war the western part of the Baltic Sea was swept thoroughly by the British and the Americans. The Soviet navy had a more haphazard approach to mine-sweeping, large areas were left untouched. All major sailing routes were of course swept and there has never been any risk that ferries and such would get close to any mines. It is not like ships are going down left and right but in the areas that were not swept there is a risk.

After the war the SU modernized and improved the defences in the baltic republics, these improvments included new mine-fields who in some cases might have ended up close to or even on top of older mine-fields.

So when the SU had to leave its bases in the baltic states the coastal waters were dotted with the remains of several defence lines dating from 1939/40 over 1944/45 and into the post war period.

The soviet navy probably tried to remove whatever they could of the more modern equipment but sweeping mines is a difficult thing even when it is your own ones and both time and resources were limited so no one really knew what they left behind.

After how many years is a mine or other munition harmless? That is of course impossible to say, most of the older ones have probably corroded and is totaly harmless but younger ones may have become unstable and might explode for almost no reason. The three baltic states together with several western countries considered the risks big enough to warrant ten years of periodic mine-sweeping operations.

Yaro I am not sure if I understand your elephant and tiger cage aphorism. Are you saying that if the majority of mines and munition is German then it is OK to leave them there?

Regards Thomas

[Yaro]

Hello Thomas, you havn't understood me... Koz'ma Prutkov's aphorism says "...don't believe your eyes" but which of two things? That's you see in the cage or that's somebody wrote for you on the tablet. I didn't argue the necessity or uselessness of such mine-sweeping. This discussion can be headed by "The Echo of Evil Empire", don't search a scapegoat. There's pure tech operation and there's political play to fling all cones onto one's head. You shouldn't lift things out of the context if you pretend for objectivity.
***
Here’s one more rhetorical saying specially for you:
“Where is the beginning of that end by which the origin ends?” (Koz'ma Prutkov)
Hope I’ve translated it correctly, so one more quotation:
“So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell,
Blue skys from pain.
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?”
(Waters, Gilmour)