Vlasov Army versus UPA/OUN

[Alex_Ivanov]

It's my turn to post question.

If USSR had died in 1941 under German invasion, could Russia survived?

Mike, in 1941 those who loved Russia fought for Soviet Union. Enemies of Russia fought against it. Vlasov sided with enemy and he wasn't example of a partriot. Search through Russian history for other idols (if you need any).

[mikeaverko]

Alex:

As I noted to Petro - Vlasov didn't fight against Russia. At the suggestion of Himmler and Rosenberg, the Nazi hierarchy kept Vlasov's army on the sidelines for much of the war. The reason for this had to do with Vlasov's refusal to embrace Nazi ideology and declare war on the West. He also opposed Russia becoming a slave state status like Czechia and Serbia (the Nazis permitted "independent" states in Slovakia and Croatia).

I see little if any evidence of Vlasov's army fighting the Red Army. In fact, the Vlasov Army liberated Prague, the last scene of WW II fighting in Europe. Towards the end of the war, the Nazis became desperate and released the Vlasov Army. The Vlasov Army understandably resented the way the Nazi hierarchy had treated their cause. In addition, as Rusisans they were by nature pro-Czech. And yes, as Petro notes it was good politics for the Vlasov Army to fight the Nazis towards the end of the war. However, Petro is historically incorrect in omitting the sincerity of Vlasov as per his earlier statements to the Nazis.

In history, the presentation of good versus evil is often not so accurate. It's often more complex than that.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by mikeaverko
....
Poles, Jews, Russians and most of those living in central, eastern and southern Ukraine have a low opinion of the UPA/OUN.

[/b]

.... and their opinion on Vlasov's army is not any higher.



Europe needs no more Quislings!

[mikeaverko]

Zbig:

Vlasov's personnel didn't commit large scale atrocities unlike the OUN/UPA.

Your Polonized Tatar friend (Batu) in Canada via Vilnius agrees with me on Vlasov.

Vlasov was no Quisling for reasons which I detail.

Were he - I wouldn't show any support for him.

[Petro_moskal]

Mike
Are you saying Vlasov didn't betray the USSR?

You say that Vlasov was fighting for "Russia", and yet the Soviet people, the Red Army were not fighting for any "Russia" imagined by Vlasov. They were fighting for the Soviet Union. Therefore, in siding with the Nazis Vlasov not only betrayed the USSR (which he obviously did) but he also betrayed the Soviet (Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Kazakh, Jewish, etc.) people. These people were not fighting for this White Guard pro-Western "Russia" that exists only in your imagination. The only Russia they fought for was the RSFSR.

I see little if any evidence of Vlasov's army fighting the Red Army.

So? It was formed with that intent. The fact that it stabbed the Germans in the back at the last minute when all was lost doesn't change anything.

Did the USSR betray Russia?

That's a nonsensical question. Rephrased - did Lenin betray the Russian Empire? Of course. He helped the Germans win against Russia in WWI and after he found that he couldn't continue the fight he signed the treasonous Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. However, after the fact the Russian Civil War was just like any civil war. The new social order it produced was not a "betrayal".

[mikeaverko]

Once again, you overlook what Vlasov was in reality versus the Soviet propaganda about him.

He didn't embrace Nazi ideology or the idea of Russia becoming a slave state. He didn't commit any war crimes along the lines of mass extermination of civilians.

Not everyone allied to the USSR during WW II was a Communist. Likewise, not everyone allied or nominally allied to Nazi Germany during WW II was a Nazi.

As for my present day views about Russia and the West, they're soundly based on the premise that both countries benefit more from cooperation than conflict. Contrary to Russia hating Brzezinskiite propaganda, Russia hasn't and isn't an inherent threat to the West.

[Petro_moskal]

Mike

He didn't embrace Nazi ideology or the idea of Russia becoming a slave state. He didn't commit any war crimes along the lines of mass extermination of civilians.

Did I say he did? Can you read what other people say, or can you only repeat the same nonsense over and over, like a parrot? Your last post had nothing to do with what I said.

Likewise, not everyone allied or nominally allied to Nazi Germany during WW II was a Nazi.

So you're saying that Finland and Romania weren't enemies of the USSR? Is that what you're saying? Or are you saying that you know you're wrong and instead of logical arguments you toss out stale self-made cliches and obvious generalities?

Now answer everything I said in my last post point by point. And please make sense.

P.S. You're worse than BlueandGold, you know that? At least he believes in a real cause.