Vlasov Army versus UPA/OUN

[Alex_Ivanov]

Originally posted by mikeaverko
Not everyone allied to the USSR during WW II was a Communist. Likewise, not everyone allied or nominally allied to Nazi Germany during WW II was a Nazi.

I think it was better for Vlasov to be allied with Russia while not beign communist, than to be allied with Germany while not beign a nazi. Because the former didn't make one an enemy of Russia, but the latter did.

You say he didn't fight against Russia. So? He wasn't among Russians (and other nations, of course) fighting for their Motherland in time of need. He was a coward and traitor. Face it and stop inventing excuses for his betrayal.

[mikeaverko]

I'm not inventing anything Alex.

Upon his being captured, Vlasov could have become a Quisling but didn't.

Something that Petro keeps dodging.

Stalin's legacy left some very bad aspects.

I refer you all to these exchanges:

http://forums.nytimes.com/top/opinio....f577f80/16173

drasko5 - 10:27 AM ET June 29, 2005 (#14960 of 14964)

Having not been the recipient of Stalin’s brutality, except for bringing Tito to power, I have funny early childhood experiences about Stalin.

During the war and German occupation it was punishable by death to listen to radio. Yet, my family every evening would retrieve our shortwave radio from its hiding place and turn it on. Either I or my cousin were sent out to listen to the dogs whose barking would signal the presence of strangers.

At the time I was inside and listening, we heard the voice:

"Govorit Moskva, govorit Moskva. Sevodnja prikaz verhovnog glavnokomandujushcheg
dvuhsot orudii prizivajut osvobozdenije …." And then followed the name of the town."

And we watched with excitement ever since Stalingrad how the front got nearer and nearer to us.

To me Verhovnii Glavno Komandujuschii was Stalin!
My hero, at the time!

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drasko5 - 10:30 AM ET June 29, 2005 (#14961 of 14964)

And there was one more Stalin's pronouncement:

"Volka ne bijut chto on serj a potomu chto on ovcu sjel"

They do not beat the wolf becouse he is grey but becaouse he ate the sheep!

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untermensch - 11:35 AM ET June 29, 2005 (#14962 of 14964)
Bal·kan·ize: to break up (as a region or group) into smaller and often hostile units.

Drasko:

That is a great personal account. My grandmother (really my great aunt who replaced my true grandmother who died as a slave laborer in Germany), told the story of the Red Army liberating Yugoslavia in 1944. That side of my family had been living near the Romanian border since 1919 and had been very well accepted by the Serb population.

First the Germans withdrew, leaving the town undefended, but the Red Army did not know that. She heard a loud cry of "Hurrah!", and a long line of infantry ran out from the hillside above the village. Along with the entire population, she was ecstatic and greeted them as liberators. The Red Army was very well behaved, although it did requisition animals and grain to feed itself. Unfortunately, behind the combat troops came the political units, and soon all the refugees from the Russian revolution of 25 years before were rounded up an put into camps, including my great grandmother who was over 80 years old at the time! Although relatives living in France eventually managed to get them extracted from the camp, they had a hard time there.

And so, there you have the duality of the whole Stalinist period.

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untermensch - 11:46 AM ET June 29, 2005 (#14963 of 14964)
Bal·kan·ize: to break up (as a region or group) into smaller and often hostile units.

Dzimas and Olov:

I think that you would find that Stalin's methods had a clear relationship to his Georgian background. First of all, his initial rise to power was in Georgia, he was not part of revolution in Russia proper. Later, as he seized power, his most loyal lieutenants were Georgian. Beria being the most important of these. I am not joking about his barking out orders in Georgian when he wanted any percieved opponents eliminated. The Stalinist terror was conducted in Georgian by Georgians, that is a fact.

As for his relationship to Lenin, who had his own system of terror, do not forget that Stalin was never seen as a potential successor by him. Many Leninists saw Stalin as a destructor of Lenin's legacy, usually ending up in Stalin using their names within an order barked in Georgian, of course.

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mikeaverko - 4:38 PM ET June 29, 2005 (#14964 of 14964)
Kathy & Dobko of http://www.ukraine.com/forums suck. Cowards censor ideas unlike intellects who address them.

One of the great "ifs" of Soviet history pertains to what would have happened if Bukharin had succeeded Lenin instead of Stalin.

I'm convinced that Trotsky likely would have been extremely brutal.

[Petro_moskal]

Mike
Shut up about dobko and Kathy. It's gone beyond annoying.

Upon his being captured, Vlasov could have become a Quisling but didn't.

HE BETRAYED HIS COUNTRY.

Something that Petro keeps dodging.

Look, nobody cares about your exchanges on other forums. Alex and I already explained the reason that Vlasov is a traitor. Are you stupid or just extremely stubborn?

[Edited by Petro_moskal on 30th June 2005 at 18:22]

[mikeaverko]

None of the above Petro.

Are you?

As per your other point, those two initiated such unctuous manner. As someone who firmly believes in an open forum environment where credible views are fairly heard, I correctly oppose such hacking.

[Petro_moskal]

We get it already. Will you stop talking about it? We've all heard it too many times.

[mikeaverko]

For clarification purposes, I was just replying to your reference about it.