Mikeaverko's other personality.......

[demagogue]

mishaaverko
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Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 944
"SS troops were not necessarily the best troops – they were just under the command of the SS. (Like NKVD troops in the USSR.) The SS included, for example, Vlasov’s Army – not exactly the crème de la crème."

Not true as the Vlasov Army rejected the ideology of Nazism and was never found guilty of "war crimes" other than having been nominally allied with the Nazis.

There was an SS Kaminski Brigade that operated in Byeolrussia and Poland. Their numbers were small and it didn't have a Russian nationalist agenda.



3rd May 2005 23:20 IP: Logged

Petro_moskal
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 287
Making excuses for Vlasov would not endear you to Russians, Misha.
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3rd May 2005 23:40 IP: Logged

mishaaverko
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Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 944
Many of them don't know the truth about him.

He was a Russian patriot and it was this mindset which got him in trouble with Rosenberg and Himmler.

Petro_moskal
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 287
He betrayed his country and sided with the most murderous regime in history, which killed 20 million Soviet civilians. There's no excuse for that.
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3rd May 2005 23:54 IP: Logged

mishaaverko
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Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 944
No.

His troops did little if any fighting against the Red Army.

Know why?

He rejected Nazism and favored a strong Russia. This got him in trouble with Himmler and Rosenberg.

As per A.J.P. Taylor and other credible historians, his troops liberated Prague from the Nazis which was one of the last scenes of WW II figthing in the Euro therater.

Btw, this a better flag:

http://www.cafepress.com/russianempirefc.13342019

Stalin killed many more Russians than what Vlasov could be legitmately accused of.

Petro_moskal
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 287
I read an impartial Russian book on him and came to my own conclusion. I don't care if he disagreed with Himmler. He betrayed his country and collaborated with the enemy - fighting for them at that. Have you seen the photo of him speaking to a small crowd in front of a poster that says "Gitler - osvoboditel'"?
Misha, you can claim to be Russian all you want, but no Russian would ever sympathize with Vlasov. To join the enemy in Russia's hardest time... no "patriotism" can excuse that.
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4th May 2005 01:49 IP: Logged

mishaaverko
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Registered: Feb 2003
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One book of many written about him Petro.

His disagreements were profound in that they pertained to Nazi ideology and declaring war on the West, which Vlasov refused to do.

Not everyone who supported the USSR during WW II was a Communist. Likewise, not everyone who was allied with Nazi Germany was a Nazi.

During the war, the Russian White General Denikin issued a decree caling on all Russians to not fight on the side of Nazi Germany. However, I underastand from reading more on this that Denikin also acknowledged the perspective that Vlasov was coming from.

Along with the Croat Ustashe, the SS units of Kaminski, Galicianer, Handzjar, Estonia and Latvia were scum in that they were ideologically involved with Nazism in addition to committing what qualify as bonafide war crimes.

Vlasov's Army wasn't a part of that.

mishaaverko
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Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 944
Batu uncovered a good point about how the non-Nazi and-or least non-Nazi of the German army supported Vlasov.

A good number of them were Baltic Germans who served in the Russian army during WW I.

This is an example of how Nazi Germany was less totalitarian than the USSR under Stalin. Under the latter, no one dared to contradict a different view in such a manner.

Among Vlasov's inner circle was a Trotskyite Jew by the name of Lev Zaikov whose life was saved from Nazi ideologues) by Vlasov on at least one occasion


4th May 2005 02:15 IP: Logged

Petro_moskal
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 287
You serve under the German flag - you're a traitor. It's that simple. While your countrymen are dying on the battlefield, being massacred by SS squads, or starving to death in a besieged city, serving the enemy - no matter how you justify it - is treason.
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4th May 2005 02:34 IP: Logged

mishaaverko
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Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 944
They didn't serve under the Nazi flag and whatever fighting they did against the Red Army was minimal if at all.

They in fact fought the Nazis, with Vlasov making an openly pronounced stand against Nazi ideology by never accepting it despite being asked to do so.

This is why the Nazis kept his army at bay. It was only released towards the end of the war when the Nazi ideologues got desperate.


4th May 2005 02:59 IP: Logged

Petro_moskal
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 287
I'm not talking about ideology, I'm talking about principle.
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mishaaverko
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Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 944
H O X !

Are you an OUN/UPA fan?

Talk about "fishy"!

Only the Vlasov Army didn't engage in bigoted rhetoric against others and weren't fingered for killing en masse those Slavs who disagreed with them.

Yeah, you have a point that they knew who would win the war upon finally getting released. That's what disgusted them about the Nazis. They were let go as a last ditch effort. Keep in mind that this Vlasov Army wasn't treated so great under captivity, despite the kind efforts of the non-Nazi German elements which supported them.

You're with Petro and I'm with Batu.

The world is turning upside down eh?




4th May 2005 04:48 IP: Logged

Petro_moskal
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 287
Misha, you will not find one person in Russia that shares your view.
There's a word in Russian - koshchunstvo - which I can't translate but illustrates your position - and Vlasov's - very well.



P.S. As for the UPA, I hate it. There could be no compromise with those *******s, just like the Vlasov Army. The UPA were terrorists and the ROA were traitors - they all merited their fates.

The ROA excuses that Misha lists are just like the UPA excuses and the SS excuses. Misha believes them because they are "Russian", "White Guard".
The civil war ended in 1922. Twenty years later Vlasov deserted to the Nazis to revive - as his apologists say - the White movement. At the least, he was going to open old wounds again and plunge Russia into civil war. Either way he wanted to fight his countrymen alongside a murderous aggressor. The only reason the ROA never fought the Red Army was because Hitler didn't allow it - he didn't trust Vlasov. Who could?


4th May 2005 07:21 IP: Logged

mishaaverko
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Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 944
Just don't get it
Once again, Vlasov rejected the idea of Russia being a second rate nation.

Because of this, the Nazis didn't release his army until the very end.

The OUN/UPA openly practiced terorism on civilians and after the Cold War promoted bigotry against Russians as per the Captive Nations Committee and Captive Nations Week.

In fact, the UPA and Vlasov Army weren't on good terms and according to Harvard University history professor John Armstrong (now retired), up to 40% of the Vlasov Army were Ukrainians.

Under Stalin, the USSR became an oppressive &&&&&&&.

This is why the Nazis were initially greeted as liberators.

Nazi stupidity lost the war for them in the east.

Stalin's domestic brutality attracted many to a different route.

A very murky situation.

[mikeaverko]

How does this thread reflect "Mikeaverko's other personality" (asked with some trepidation)?

[demagogue]

Petro_moskal
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2005

Misha, you can claim to be Russian all you want, but no Russian would ever sympathize with Vlasov. To join the enemy in Russia's hardest time... no "patriotism" can excuse that.




I agree with, Petro.
You are not the Russian patriot you claim to be. Even the people that you claim support you can see through your pathetic guise.

[mikeaverko]

Actually when presented in its entirety, intelligent people can see that Petro and myself had a civil discourse, whereas you babble on like an idiot.

The Polonized Tatar ukraine.com poster Batukhan, (who is originally from Vilnius) agrees with me about Vlasov.

Most of the Vlasov supporters are of Russian origin themselves and quite proud of their Russian heritage. Soviet educated Russians were brought up with a more restricted view of him.

[demagogue]

Originally posted by mikeaverko


Most of the Vlasov supporters are of Russian origin themselves and quite proud of their Russian heritage.

No, just one confused little American named Mike. You are American Mike! Be proud, it's a great country.


Soviet educated Russians were brought up with a more restricted view of him. [/quote]


More of the Soviet educated Russians? (As opposed to the Russian educated ones?) What the hell are you trying to say?

[mikeaverko]

This coming from someone who posted a family emblem that has a Polish style white eagle on a red background.

Explain that. Are you of ethnic Polish orign from western Ukraine or are you of mixed Polish-west Ukrainian background?

So, Soviet educated Rusisans know the history of Katyn and the famine in Ukraine better than the more educated/intelligent likes of yourself Dobko?

That's the logic you're applying here vis-a-vis Vlasov.

There's a Vlasov thread I started in this section with all sorts of facts and fact based opinions supporting my views of Vlasov. It includes the contributioins from other posters.

Well, this was one of your better attemets at an earnest dialogue.

You still have a long way to go.

[demagogue]

An eagle?



Lay off the vodka man!