Russia and the Allies

[Michal_PL]

If Pilsudski helped Denikin it wouldn't change anything for Poland.White Russia would remain strongly and genetically germanophile and joined Hitler in WW2 even more willingly.only Russian opressions would be less tough.

[mikeaverko]

You don't know what you're talking about Mike.

Russians fought the Germans centuries earlier as well as during WW I and WW II. Denikin rejected an alliance with Skoropodsky on the basis that that he (Skoropodsky) was pro-German, whereas Denikin was on the Western side until the very end of WW I.

What side was Pilsudki on during WW I?

[Michal_PL]

what does it have to do with that?Pilsudski was on Austria side during WWI.and if he lived longer he would probably join Austrian Hitler in antisoviet crusade.because he would know that otherwise Russia would join Hitler.

[mikeaverko]

Yes, it's okay for Poles to join Hitler but not Russians.

You prove my point yet again without apparently even realizing it.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by generalzo

That was not an easy job, certainly. But, had there only been a good will - on both sides - it would be possible. Autumn of 1919 was the best moment for Pilsudski to approach "White" leaders with moderate and fair demands. The result most likely would have been destruction of Bolshevism and a good basis for the long-lasting friendly relations between the two states.

Everyone who knew what were the principles of Bolshevic ideology ("the World Revolution", for example) and who had read "Mein kamph" could predict Hitler's and Stalin's sick appetites. Having this in mind, I think it is very obvious that Pilsudski's non-agression agreements with Germany and Soviet Union were bad political moves. A bold action in cooperation with France was the only way out.

[Edited by generalzo on 28th July 2005 at 01:28] [/b]

Hi generalzo, it seems Poles and Russians had similar international friends at a time. France, however was ruled by pacifists at that time and France could not spread an anti-Nazi umbrella over Poland not to say Russia. A partner like today's America was badly needed before WWII. There was no such partner in Europe. It was Poland's bad historic luck that it was pressed between two powerful players Germany and Russia. Please remember that France and Britain did confidently advised Poland a concession to Hitler similar to that of Czechoslovakia before WWII. They could sleep well another year or two until Hitler knocked their door.


Michal, how did you come to conclusion that Russians show genetic liking for Germans????? Could you support your thory on consistent facts please? I do not think Russians showed more inclination to love Germans than Czechs did. There are stereoptypes circulating in Poland about Czech love for Germans but real facts of today do not support such theory.

[Michal_PL]

there you go,Zbyszek

1720-treaties between Austria,Germany and Russia against Poland
1732-treaty of 3 black eagles
from 1700 to 1914 almost all Russian diplomats were pure Germans,tzarist dynasty from 1762 was practically German
1762-Peter III leaves Russian army from Prussia
1772,1793,1795-Poland
1794,1830,1863-Prussia helps Russia defeat Polish risings
1922-Rapallo,economic and military cooperation between Germany and USSR
1926-Berlin treaty of non-agression between Germany and Russia
1939-common agression on Poland
1939-41-political and economic cooperation
1990-Gorbatchov allows to unify Germany
from 1990s-economic and political cooperation between Germany and Russia
Putin's germanophilia,German gorbiphilia,putinophilia and russophilia

WWI,WWII were only short breaks

this all proves enough Russians are genetically germanophile not panslavic.

[generalzo]

Originally posted by Zbyszek
It was Poland's bad historic luck that it was pressed between two powerful players Germany and Russia. Please remember that France and Britain did confidently advised Poland a concession to Hitler similar to that of Czechoslovakia before WWII. They could sleep well another year or two until Hitler knocked their door.

Lack of the British or French initiative isn't a real exuse for the bad moves of Pilsudski. His politic was anyway shor-sighted. Germany never recovered its strenght and enthusiasm from 1914. Only disunity of its opponents made possible Hitler's succsesses. How strong was German army in 1934?

Originally posted by Michal_PL


... from 1700 to 1914 almost all Russian diplomats were pure Germans,tzarist dynasty from 1762 was practically German
1762-Peter III leaves Russian army from Prussia
1772,1793,1795-Poland
1794,1830,1863-Prussia helps Russia defeat Polish risings
1922-Rapallo,economic and military cooperation between Germany and USSR
1926-Berlin treaty of non-agression between Germany and Russia
1939-common agression on Poland ...

this all proves enough Russians are genetically germanophile not panslavic.

Many of Russian diplomats were German by origin - same as many of European dinasties (British, Romanian, Bulgarian etc.) - but they were subjects of Russian emperor. Peter III was a madman, that is well-known. Russia and Prussia (or Germany) sometimes in their history had the same interests. What does that prove?

"Russians are genetically germanophile" ?! - complete nonsense.