The Caucasoid descent of Chinese people

[jimmu]

I read your website and got some questions. You claimed the Yellow Emperor or Huangdi did not mean for the color of hair but embodying the 'virtue of mud'. You said any talk related to hair is sheer racist opinion. Which Chinese classics book said the yellow was the color of the mud? Can you point me somewhere?

You also talked about the different two groups of people's time of arrival in Gansu Province, Western China. Your website said "According to Sima Qian, the 'SanMiao' people, who resided in the land where the later Chu Statelet was, were mostly relocated to western China to guard against the western nomads. Lord Shun relocated them to western China as a punishment for their aiding the son of Lord Yao (Dan Zhu) in rebellion. To the west of today's Dunhuang of Gansu Prov was a mountain named 'San Wei Shan' where the Three Miao peoples were exiled. This could lead to a sound speculation that Sino-Tibetan speaking San Miao people had dwelled in Gansu much earlier than the later Indo-European Yuezhi people. The approximate date would be about 2258 BC for the relocation." And, then you said they came to Western China earlier than Indo-Europeans by 1000 years since the mummies were like 3000 year old.

How do you date the mummie and how do you tell how long those Indo-Europeans had dwelled there before mummification?

How do you tell whether the two groups of people had ever mixed up with each other? I would like to hear your views on that.



Jim

[fhawkutoo]

There's an ethnic group in northern China called the Xibe. Ancient Chinese records often mention that many Xibe's had blonde hair and blue eyes, although now, they are almost indistinguishable from the Han Chinese. Anyone know about these people? If you have knowledge in this area, please share )

[countryboy]

Sibo historically dwelled in northern Xing'an Ridge of northern Manchurian, relatives of Manchurians. Majority of them were relocated to Western China as garrison troops under Manchu Qing Emperor Qianlong's order. I could only tell you should you look for a Mongolian in this world, the Xibo guy would be closer to this description than any other groups of people. My classmate, a Sibo, was looking just like Genghis Khan, with a square face, a short neck and a lower-than-median Mongolian height.

I have no idea why you tried to make a big deal out of some hair color? To make the Mongols non-Mongolian so that you would be feeling better about Mongol conquest of Europe? Or to claim that Nordic people had devised and cultivated all the civilizations of this world?

Sibo claimed to have descended from early Xianbei people, also known as Eastern Hu peoples. After the Hunnic decline in late first century AD, the Xianbei moved back to the old territories, between Yinshan Mountains and Yanshan Mountains. The Xianbei mixed up with the Huns. There appeared a Xianbei chieftan called Tanshikui (reign AD 156-181) who established a Xianbei alliance by absorbing dozens of thousands of Huns. The Tanshikui alliance disintegrated after the death of Tanshikui. Another chieftan called Kebi'neng emerged. Ts'ao Ts'ao broke this new Xianbei alliance by having Shi Xiong send an assasin to kill Kebi'neng. Warlord Yuan Shao campaigned against the Wuhuans and controlled three prefectures of Wuhuan nomads. After Ts'ao Ts'ao defeated Yuan Shao, Yuan's two sons, Yuan Shang and Yuan Xi fled to seek refuge with the Wuhuans. Ts'ao Ts'ao campaigned against the Wuhuan, killed a chieftan called Tadu (with same last character as Hunnic Chanyu Modu or Modok), and took over the control of southern Manchuria. Xianbei then took the place of Wuhuan, and three major groups were seen: Greater Xianbei under Budugeng, Lesser Xianbei under Kebineng, and Manchurian Xianbei. The Xianbei nomad, with major tribes of Murong, Yuwen, Duan, would establish many short-lived successive states along the Chinese frontier.

Among these states, the Tuoba (T'o-pa in Wade-Giles) took over northern China and established Toba Wei Dynasty. In the Altai, leftover Huns were absorbed by Ruruans whose founder, who once served under Toba, fled to the Altai and built up a strong power by absorbing the Huns and Gao-che people. Then, the Ruruans were defeated and exterminated by Turks. Tobas would deal with the onslaughts by the Ruruans first and then the Turks. Tobas themselves got sinicized in northern China.

In AD 443, the barbarians who took over Toba's old territories, upper Heilongjiang River and northern Xing'an Ridge (Greater Khingan Mountains), came to see Toba Wei Emperor (Toba Tao) and told him that they found Toba ancestor's stone house, called 'Ga Xian Dong'. Toba Tao sent a minister called Li Chang to the stone house which was carved out of a natural cavern. In 1980s, this cavern was discovered as well as the inscriptions left by Li Chang. Ultimately, Toba Wei Dynasty would be usurped by two generals of Xianbei heritage.

The peoples who dwelled in old Xianbei-Wuhuan-Toba territories would be the later Shiwei Tribes (ancestors of Mengwu Shiwei or Genghis Mongols), the Khitans, the Xi nomads, and the Malgal people etc. They would be the ancestors of later Jurchens or Mongols. The Khitans first appeared on the stage.

Specifically, "New History Of Tang Dynasty" mentioned that the Khitans were the descendants of the Kebi'neng Xianbei.

New History Of Tang Dynasty said that by the time of Toba's Northern Wei Dynasty (AD 386-534), the ancestors of Khitans adopted the name 'Khitan' or "Qidan' for themselves.

Khitans lived around the Liao River in today's Manchuria. To the east of the Khitans will be Koguryo, to the west the Xi nomads (said to be alternative race of the Huns), to the north Huji (Malgal) and Shiwei Tribes, and to the south Yingzhou Prefecture of Toba Wei Dynasty.

"New History Of Tang Dynasty" said Khitans possessed eight tribes and they were subject to the Turks. Prior to Sui Dynasty (AD 581-618), Turks had replaced their Ruruan masters as the strongest power in the northern steppe. Around 620s, Khitan chieftan came to see Tang's first Emperor, Gaozu, together with Malgal chieftan. At the times of Tang Empress Wuhou, Khitans began to rebell against Tang. In AD 712, Khitans submitted to Tang and was conferred King of Songmuo Prefecture. Heads of eight Khitan tribes were conferred posts as general, too. By mid-750s, the Khitans defeated the Tang army led by An Lushan. Khitans later submitted to Uygurs. It would be in AD 842 that Khitans came to submit to Tang again after the Uygur kingdom was destroyed by the Kirghiz. Governor-general of Youzhou, Zhang Zhongwu, would replace Khitan's Uygur seal with Tang seal. In AD 860s, Khitans came to pay pilgrimages to Tang. With the demise of Tang Dynasty (AD 618-907), Khitans began to conquer Xi nomads, Tanguts, Dadan and Shiwei statelets. Uygurs (Uighurs) took refuge in Ganzhou and Xinjiang after being replaced by the Kirghiz.

In manchuria, after Silla unification of Korea, remnant Koguryo people established the state of Bohai. The Bohai (Po'hai or Palhae) Statelet was destroyed by Khitans. Khitans at one time established a vassal statelet called 'Dong Dan' or Eastern Khitan over the Bohai territory. Jurchen gradually and secretly built up strength, made up excuses to prevent the Khitan generals from penetrating into Jurchen territory to catch Khitan rebels, overthrew the yoke of Khitans, and set up Jurchen Jin Dynasty.

When Jurchens rose up against the Khitans and moved into northern China, the Shiwei and Mongolia territories were nominally controlled by the Jurchens via three major Jurchen vassals: the Naimans, the Keraits and the Tatars.

Later history is much clearer. Mongols rose up and destroyed Jurchens. It would be another 400 years before Manchurians, descendants of the Jurchens, rose up again.

Ask a Sibo, a Mongol, a Manchu or a Korean about their ancestry. I am sure none of them would like to dye their hair into a color that you like. Note there are still proud Mongoloid people today who like what our hair color is like.

[countryboy]

This is a updated version of prehistory at

http://www.uglychinese.org/prehistory.htm

Please don't treat ancient Chinese as color-blind people. There is no sense to twist the historical facts to serve racist agenda. Early Chinese were neither Negroid nor Caucasoid. They were Mongoloid.

To dispel Nordic racist extrapolation, I will give two good examples to show that Qin Chinese were not color-blind people.

The blackness, coined in 'Qian Shou' and 'Li Min', was related to the skin, not the hair.

When Qin Mugong repented over his mistake in invading Zheng Principality which had led to the ambush disaster at the Battle of Xiao'er, he used the characters 'huang fa fan fan' (white hair turning yellowish) to describe the high age of his two counsellors, Jian Shu and Baili Xi. Both old men, 80-90 years old, had objected to Mugong's war against Zheng in the first place.

The second example would be the reference to Daoist founder, Lao-zi, as <i>Huang Lao</i>.

Lao-zi was recorded to have grown yellow beard and he was called Huang Lao or the Yellow Elderly.

This shows that ancient Chinese did know the difference between 'huang' (yellow) and black. The universal feature of 'black' hair was not something that would have deserved a special coding in the terms of 'Qian Shou' and 'Li Min'.

'Qian Shou' and 'Li Min' meant nothing other than brownish dark skin as a result of sunlight exposure, not hair !!!

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I do acknowledge the possible contact with Indo-European in Xinjiang 3000 years ago. But Sino-Tibetan Qiangic people, whose descendants are today's Tibetans and Qiangs in Tibet-Sichuan-Qinghai-Gansu, already relocated to Gansu Prov, i.e., He-xi Corridor, 4000 years ago under the order of Lord Shun.

Read my writings on Huns and you would know when the Huns raided into Xinjiang (Chinese Turkistan) and drove off the Indo-European Yuezhi people. It happened about 2200 years ago.

The most reliable record of non-Mongolian physique would be in regards to the Khirgiz of the Yenesei River, somewhere close to northwestern Siberia. Also note that it was the Huns who first raided into the Khirgiz territory 2000 years ago. A Chinese defector-general, Li Ling, was assigned there by the Huns, and that's why the Khirgiz who came to Mongolia to fight the Uygur 1200 years ago would claim that they shared the same last name as Tang Dynasty emperors, i.e., 'Li' surname.



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Excavations Of Bird-Totem Cultures

The origin of the Mongoloid people may or may not be related to the sinanthropus shoukoutien (300-500 thousand years old), the homo erectus pekinensis found in today's Zhoukoudian, near Beijing. As archaeologists and anthropologists pointed out, modern men did not come from homo erectus, nor homo sapiens (80-200 thousand years ago), but homo sapiens sapiens (20-70 thousand years ago), instead. Recent DNA tests had provided clues that the Chinese males' genes do share one similar feature with the Africans, proving that mankind did come out of Africa. Mankind became active on the globe only after the dissipation in 9000 BC of the last Ice Age, last one of the 17-19 glaciations extending from 3 million years ago. This timeframe would be labeled Upper Palaeolithic. 30 thousand years ago, the Mongoloid people had started to cross the Bering Straits. The Mongoloid would come into tribal shapes about 10 thousand years ago, and they then went though the Neolithic Age and the Bronze & Iron Age. Historians, before the emergence of the DNA technology, had claimed that the human genome had taken shape about 10,000 years ago. Mainly in Asian and American continents, the Mongoloids established their lasting home base. The limited varieties in the human races could also point to the intense competiton and hostility between those early human beings during the long years of evolution.

An examination of the Chinese continent will yield two main rivers, the Yellow River and the Yangtze River. Recent excavations had produced numerous sites showing that the early Chinese had multiple domains, including the Sanxingdui Excavations in Sichuan Province, the Jiangxi Province excavations, and the rice cultures of Hemudu and Liangzhu in Zhejiang / Jiangsu provinces. (Sanxingdui Excavations had produced bronze statutes exhibiting people with protruding eyes.) Archaeology will yield several distinct phases:
5000 BC?: Hemudu Culture established a presence along the lower Yangtze River delta. There is evidence of rice cultivation, fishing, wood frame houses. Hemudu Culture was validated to have excavated articles bearing the bird-sun totem, a heritage observed in later Yangshao Culture and Longsang Culture;
4000 - 1700 BC: Yangshao Culture in the Yellow River valley. There is evidence of round structures built from mud-brick with a thatched roof and a central peak and agriculture to clear the land to plant crops of millet, wheat, barley, and some rice. Excavations from Quanhu-chun Village, Liuzi-zhen Town, Hua-xian County, Shenxi Prov had produced colored pottery depicting a bird totem with the sun in the wing.
3500-2000 BC: Longsang Culture across the North China Plain and the hills of the Shandong Peninsula - They cultivated millet and rice, raised pigs, sheep, goats, cattle and water buffalo, and possessed permanent villages surrounded by large mud walls. Longsang Culture was validated to have built on top of Da-wen-kou Culture. (Ancient Wen-shui River was in Shandong Prov.) Longsang Culture excavations had produced potteries with similar bird totems.
In the Yellow River area, including the Hetao Area (the patch of land surrounded by the Yellow River on 3 sides) and the Ordos Plains, the early Chinese civilizations flourished. In this area, agricultural settlers would co-exist with nomadic tribes till today, a peculiar phenomenon not seen in other earlier civilizations. With the settlement came the domestication of animals, farming of millet, pottery and art, ceremonies, and cultures. There is sound speculation about the fundamental cause that city-states had developed among sedentary Chinese, i.e., the co-existence of sedentary people with the nomadic people of the steppe who constantly preyed upon the lower plains.


Legends Of Ancient Tribes

Chinese civilization, in mythology, begins with 'Pang Gu Kai Tian', namely, Pangu creating the universe, and there are a succession of legendary sages, overlords and ancient emperors. (Recently, some historian had speculated that Pangu was the same person as Panhu.) Huai Nan Zi talked about Nü-wa (a female) mending the collapsed skies as a result of the fightings between Gonggong (god of fire) and Zhurong (god of water). Nü-wa was said to have created people out of mud figurines. A Western Han Dynasty story claimed that Nü-wa was the younger sister of Fuxi. Fuxi, aka Tai-hao-shi, was said to be the ancestor of phoenix tribe, i.e., Eastern Yi people. Zuo Zhuan repeatedly stated that Tai-hao-shi, whose ruins ware at later Chen-guo fief, had such family names as 'Ren4' and 'Su4' around the domain of Henan-Shandong provinces. After the death of Fuxi, Nü-wa-shi would replace Tai-hao-shi as the leader of phoenix or bird-totem tribes. Over dozen successions of clans (i.e., **-**-shi) had carried on the tradition of bird-totem.

Then came along Shennong or Yandi the Fiery Lord. Note that Shen-nong-shi's totem is ox. Shennong or Yandi was born by a You-qiao-shi woman after visiting Hua-yang (south of Mt Huashan ?) where she was impregnated by a dragon-faced spirit. Yandi, having a human body and ox face, was noted for his agricultural accomplishments and revered as the overlord with the virtue of fire. After Shen-nong-shi failed to reign in the vassals, Huangdi (Yellow Lord) came to assert his power. The Yellow Lord and Fiery Lord are the most famous among those legendary figures. The legends would develope into the polytheism, ancestor worship and a worship of gods including Shang-Tian (the Heaven on High or Lord Highness). Huangdi would be where we are to trace the lineage of later overlords as well as the kings & emperors of Xia-Shang-Zhou-Qin dynasties.



Sui-ren-shi
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You-chao-shi
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Pao-xi-shi (Fu-xi-shi)
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...
(dozens of generations)
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Shen-nong-shi (Yandi)
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You-xiong-shi (Huangdi, aka Xuanyuan-shi or Xuan-yuan-shi)



Speculation As To Proto Groups

Two proto groups of peoples, Hua People (also denoted Huaxia or Xia where the character 'hua' was said to have derived from the Huashan Mountain near Xi'an city) vs Yi People (also denoted Dongyi or Eastern Yi in later times), would come into play in this prehistoric time period. The classification of early Chinese into two groups would be an over-simplication. Since issues still exist as to the sub-components that would comprise the two groups of people, it would be a good generalization for the time being. The issues would be: i) how to explain the relationship of Chiyou vs Huangdi vs Yandi tribal groups; ii) how to explain the fact that Huangdi tribal group shared the bird-totem as all past excavations and the later Dong-yi people; iii) how to explain the fact that Chiyou's Jiu-li (Nine Li2) tribal group shared the ox-totem as Yandi tribal group; and iv) how to dispute the claim that Huangdi tribal group might have origin in Altaic-speaking people on the steppe.

There had been speculations by a scholar called Qin Yanzhou in regards to Yandi, Huangdi and Chiyou. Qin Yanzhou claimed that the ox-totem Yandi tribal group had evolved from proto-Xi-Rong people in northwestern China and that the bird-totem Huangdi tribal group had evvolved from proto-Bei-Di people in northern China. Proto-Bei-Di people had been linked to later Altai-speaking people. Qin Yanzhou further claimed that proto-Xi-Rong people who remained in northwestern China would be later Qiang1 and Di1 people while proto-Bei-Di people who remained in northern China would be later steppe people like the Huns. Qin Yanzhou also claimed that after the mix-up of Yandi/Huangdi tribal groups, they adopted 'dragon' as the totem, something I had not been able to validate from Chinese classics. Qin Yanzhou's wild speculations also claimed a direct relationship of those proto peoples from the excavated homo erectus in different areas of China, a fallacy in light of the common knowledge that human beings came from homo sapien sapien. Qin Yanzhou had another flaw on the matter of reconciling the timing and history of San-Miao relocation to Gansu Prov during Lord Shun's reign.

Qin Yanzhou claimed that proto-Dong-Yi shared similar ancestry as proto-Bei-Di, while proto-Nan-Man shared similar ancestry as proto-Xi-Rong. Qin Yanzhou claimed that proto-Dong-Yi had come to eastern China from the steppe earlier than Huangdi's proto-Bei-Di people's move to northern China from the steppe. Qin Yanzhou's claim in regards to proto-Nan-Man's relationship to proto-Xi-Rong is similar to related studies in regards to relationship between Nü-wa (Nü-wa-shi) around mid-Yangtz area and Fu-xi (Fu-xi-shi)'s location to the north of Nü-wa, but both approaches had violated the historical claim that Nü-wa and Fu-xi had adopted the bird-totem the same way as Hemudu, Yangshao and Longshan excavations.

Here, Xi-Rong or Western Rong meant for later Rong people in northwestern China, Bei-Di or Northern Di meant for later northern Di people, Dong-Yi or Eastern Yi people meant for later Yi people in the east, and Nan-Man or Southern Man2 meant for the southern barbarians.


Legends Of Yellow Lord vs Fiery Lord

Chinese classics, per Sima Qian's Shi Ji, claimed that early Chinese overlords were of same heritage. Yandi (Fiery Lord) was said to have been in Lixiang, east of the Yellow River, and he was known as Li-shan-shi by the name of Lixiang. Huangdi (Yellow Lord ) were born in eastern China, too. In this sense, Yandi and Huangdi had origin in the land of the Yi people in the east, in or near today's Shandong Province. For simplicity's sake, I would have no choice but to lock down the birthplaces of Yandi and Huangdi as the point of origin. Yandi, Huangdi, and Lord Zhuanxu were recorded to have treated Qufu of Shandong as the capital. Lord Zhuanxu later relocated to Shangqiu, Henan Prov. Qufu was considered to be the statelet of Da-ting-shi clan. Also close to Jinan city of Shandong would also be dwelling place of a barbarian group called 'Chang Di' barbarians.

Ban Gu commented that Yandi (Fiery Lord) was entitled Shen-nong-shi (Shen Nong Shi) for his teachings of agriculture to the people. Huangfu Mi (Jinn Dynasty) commented that Shen-nong-shi replaced another tribe called Pao-xi-shi (Pao Xi Shi), i.e., hunting tribe. Pao-xi-shi was also known as Fuxu-shi or Fu-xi-shi, aka Taihao, who had origin (alternatively, birthplace) in the west of China. Before that, Pao-xi-shi had replaced You-chao-shi (You Chao Shi), the people who made homes on the tree, while You-chao-shi had replaced Sui-ren-shi (Sui Ren Shi), i.e., the people who lived by making fire from the stones. Yandi was said to be born near the ancient Jiang-shui River and hence named Jiang. (The surname of 'jiang', similar to Huangdi's surname of 'ji', carries the female denotation in the character parts, which originally meant for the maternal or matriarchal tribal affiliations.) Yandi was also known as Lieshan-shi, which was a name with paternal or patriarchal tribal affiliation. The birthplace was in later Li-guo fief. Later, Yandi relocated to later Chen-guo fief and Lu-guo fief (Qufu, Shandong, on Shandong Peninsula), consecutively. Yandi possessed the head in the shape of an ox and could be considered semi-god / semi-human. Yandi was embodiment of the virtue of 'fire' in Chinese metaphysics. Guo Yü stated that both Yandi and Huangdi were sons of Shaodian Tribe. The reconciliation here will be to treat Shen-nong as a titular title, not a specific person, and to treat Shaodian as a tribal group. This is because the maternal affiliated name of Yandi ('jiang') and the maternal affiliated name of Huangdi ('ji') could also hint two separate women as their both mothers. Shang people, starting from ancestor Xie, had adopted paternal lineages, as validated by Shang's oracle bones. (Huns and Turks had retained the custom of maternal affiliated surnames much longer: The Founder of Hunnic Han Dynasty, Liu Yuan, was a good example of having retained the family name of 'Liu' from the Han princesses, and the Ashina Turk had obtained the surname from their mother as well.)

According to Sima Qian, Lord Huangdi (i.e., Yellow Lord, l. 2697 - 2599 BC?) was the son of Shaodian tribe. (Note that the prevalent designation of 'Yellow Emperor' is semantically errorenous since the title 'emperor' did not get coined till Qin's First Emperor Shihuangdi. Ancient sovereigns carried the character 'di4' as equivalent to overlords.) Huangdi or Yellow Lord was born at Shouqiu, to the northeast of today's Qufu, Shandong Provinc (i.e., ancient Yanzhou Prefecture). Huangdi's last name is Gongsun, and it was renamed to Ji(1) while growing up on the bank of Ji-shui River. He was also known as Xuanyuan by the name of Xuanyuan Mountain. (Xuanyuan-shi would be the paternal tribal affiliations.) Lord Yandi (Fiery Lord) was in charge of China prior to the emergence of Huangdi (Yellow Lord). Since Yandi's descendants could not control the tribes and the central plains, Lord Huangdi organized his army and took the place of Shennong-shi after fighting three wars with Yandi Tribe. Lord Huangdi defeated Lord Yandi's tribe in a place called Banquan, and hence replaced Shen-nong-shi as the overlord of then China. Lord Huangdi had 25 sons, among whom 14 had established their own family names. Two elder sons, Changyi and Xuanxiao, were both conferred the land in the west, today's Sichuan Province. One of the sons born with Huangdi's wife (Leizu) is called Changyi. Changyi was conferred the land in Sichuan Province, by the ancient Ruo-shui River, and Changyi's son, named Gaoyang, is Lord Zhuanxu (l. BC 2514 - 2437 ?). Huangdi was the embodiment of the virtue of 'earth' in Chinese metaphysics, and the character 'huang' meant for the yellow color of the earth, not the color of hair. (Nordic racists - Don't get wrong !) Since Huangdi was the embodiment of earth, later Toba (Tuoba or Topa) people, who claimed descent from one of the Huangdi's sons, adopted the 'tu' (i.e., 'tuo' for mud or earth) and 'ba' (a northern dialect meaning descendant') as their clan name. Huangdi's country was entitled You-xiong-shi, i.e., bear country (a place near today's Xinzheng, Henan Province). (Zuo Zhuan stated that Huangdi was also named Di-hong-shi. You-xiong-shi, Di-hong-shi or Xuanyuan-shi were alternative paternal tribal titular names, while the name of 'Ji' meant the maternal tribal affiliations.)

Comment In Regards To 'Xing' (Surname) & Shi (clan name): Ancient Chinese overlords possessed 'Xing4' (Surname), a word meaning 'born by a woman'. Huangdi's Ji1 surname and Yandi's Jiang3 surname are good examples. Chinese surnames used to carry female character part to denote the maternal tribal affiliations. The descendants or vassals enjoyed the so-called 'family name' of Shi4 (clan name), i.e., paternal tribal titular names. It would be during the Han Dynasty that Chinese mixed up surnames and clan names for designating the 'last name' in modern sense. One good example about this intricacy would be the name of Jiang Taigong the cousellor for Zhou King Wenwang. Jiang Taigong was called Lü Shang of Lü-shi clan or Jiang Ziya with Jiang surname.

Huangdi's Wars With Chiyou & Yandi, Respectively: When Huangdi was in regency, he had 83 Chiyou brothers in his court. Since the Chiyou brothers were very cruel to people, Xuanyuan or Huangdi (the Yellow Lord) fought 73 successive battles against Chi-u (Ciyou), the leader of Jiuli tribe. Jiuli, i.e., nine 'li' people, were considered a group of Yi people.

Some advocates for southern aboriginals claimed that Chiyou (Chi-u) belonged to southern Chinese who descended from the Liangzhu Culture and that southerners had expanded into Hebei areas of northern China, instead. Qin Yanzhou speculated: that Jiuqi was an alliance of ox-totem southern proto-Nan-Man people and bird-totem eastern proto-Dong-Yi people; that after Jiuli's defeat, proto-Nan-Man people evolved into San-Miao people; that proto-Dong-Yi inter-married with Lord Zhuanxu's tribe into later Chu-Qin-Zhao statelet's ancestors; and that proto-Dong-Yi inter-married with Lord Diku's tribe into later Shang people. Qin Yanzhou further divided the San-Miao into Dong-yue (Eastern Yue or She-tribe) in the southeast, Yao-tribe in the south and Wuling-man barbarians (Miao tribe) in the southwest. Qin Yanxhou classified Nan-yue (Southern Yue people) and today's Zhuang-tribe of Guangxi/Yunnan provinces as a mixture between Mongolians and Malays. Note Qin Yanzhou's speculation is not supported by either written classics or archaeology.

Chiyou As The Cultivator Of Original Chinese Civilization: http://www.hmongcenter.org/inonkinchipa.html had a good account of Chiyou's contributions to the original Chinese civilization. It cited Historian Fan Wenlan’s research in saying that "Huang-Di’s tribes were living an unsteady nomadic life in Zhuolu area when Chi You realized the unification of agricultural tribes and founded the Nine-Li State" along the Yangtze River and Huai-shui River. It stated that "Chi You was the first to create weapons, penal laws and a religion, which not just played an important pole in the development of Chinese culture and technology, but ushered in a new epoch for the Chinese nation to enter a civilized era." It validated the influence of Chiyou as an overlord of then China by citing the fact (as recorded by Sima Qian's Shi Ji) that "Huang Di and the following monarchs respected Chi You as respected Chi You as Fight God after his death. ... Huang Di used Chi You’s image to threaten those who wouldn’t obey him. Thus Huang Di and his people took Chi You for a god to protecting themselves and had respect for him." (Per Fan Wenlan, Chiyou possessed 9 tribes, with nine sub-tribes each, totalling 81 tribes, and that is how the 81 Chiyou brothers came to be known in Sima Qian's Shi Ji. Apparently, Chiyou, being an overlord of then China, did not serve Huangdi in the court at all. History was just revised by the victor.)

Huangdi's Rise To Power: The Yellow Lord was said to have cut off Chiyou's head, in a battle in which the Yellow Emperor used six kinds of animals (possibly six tribes using animal as totems) and most importantly, compass. The battleground was called Zhuolu, near today's Zhuozhou, Hebei Province. Zhuolu Mountain would be where Huangdi's new capital was before he moved to the west. (In today's Zhuozhou, three statutes of Huangdi, Yandi and Chiyou could be seen.)

Huangdi further drove off the ancient 'Xunyu' barbarians in the north, reached Gansu Province in the west, and climbed Mount Xiongshan on the Yantze bank in the south. The domain of his grandson, Lord Zhuanxu, reached Jiaozhi, today's Guangdong-Guangxi bordering Vietnam.

Both Yellow Lord and the Fiery Lord are in fact titular names of the two tribal leaders since nobody could live for hundreds of years and fought 73 successive battles. When Confucius' student, Zai, asked whether Huangdi was a human or a god, Confucius replied, "Huangdi was considered 300 years old because Huangdi lived for one hundred years (111 years to be exact), Huangdi's death was revered by people for one hundred years, and Huangdi's teachings were utilized by people for one hundred years."

[fhawkutoo]

Theres this asian race of people in the U.S. who call themselves Hmong. Some of them have natural blue, green, or hazel eyes, with blonde, light brown, or reddish hair. In China they're known as the Miao. They were brought to the U.S. after the secret war in Laos in which the U.S recrutied the Hmongs to help fight the communist. After the U.S lost and the communist took over, the Hmong were marked for genocide. Hmong history is intriguing. When you ask a Hmong about their origins, the old folks tell of a place where ice was on the ground and it was dark for months at hand. Another story the hmongs tell of are when the chinese genocided all the hmongs with blonde hair and blue eyes. True story of what the hmong themselves tell.

Anyone have any knowledge in this area?

[countryboy]

You are not the only one who had been advocating the Nordic creation of world civilizations. I read quite a few already, and they tried to ascribe Noric people to the owners of Nineveh, Nimrud and Babylon of Mesopotamia and the ancient Egypt and the ancient China. It would be futile though. Though some of you folks had claimed that Egyptian stone statutes contain some colored stones as eyes, I doubt they meant anything other than a decoration or a distinction from the other parts of the face. The mummies are abundant for you to examine their identity.

Now back to your Hmong claim. Unfortunately, southeast Asia used to be the dwelling place of Malayo-Polynesian and Australian aboriginal people. 2000 years ago, they were described as possessing curly hair and black skin. You know why? They were either kins of Dravidians from India or came to southeast Asian with the spread of Indian Buddhism. Islam spread across the same area in the ensuing years, and that's why there were a great number of Indian Indians in Malaysia and Singapore today. 1300 years ago, China's Tang Dynasty used to import a group of black skin people called 'KUN NU', and they acted as magicians, stunts and bodyguards for Tang princes and princesses. Scholars had determined that their origin was in Southeast Asia, not Africa.

You must be disappointed again in the historical background of Southeast Asia for its lack of conditions for producing some color you want. I already expounded Xibo matter. (If you give me an email, I will send you picture of my Xibo classmate.)

Only the part bordering China's Guangdong/GHuangxi provinces were historically linked to China and populated by immigrants from CHina. It could be dated to First Qin Emperor Shihuangdi's southern campaigns and later Han Emperor Wudi's conquest of Nan-yue or Southern Yueh Statelet. Massive Mongolian migrations only occured after Mongols' sacking the ancient Dali or Nanzhao Kingdom in today's Chinese Yunnan Province. In 1252 and 1253, Khubilai would order Subetei's son to attack Dali (i.e., Nanzhao), with three columns. Dali King, Duan Zixing, surrendered.

Before the Mongolians, central and southern Vietnam was named Champa, and they were the kinsmen of Cambodia and Thailand, all related to Dravidians of India.

As to your Hmong people, I would only speculate that the French left some traits among them. The French, colonizing Indo-China since late 19th century, had systematically pitted one group of ethnic people against the other. And, don't say that you are so proud of your eye color or hair color that you would not engage in sex with small Asian women. Numerous movies had portaryed your sailors buying sex whenever the warship docked, in Manila, in Bankok, in Hanoi, in HK, and elsewhere. My colleague, who used to attend school in Norfolk, Virginia, had pointed out that hundreds of Korean women had been engaged in prostitution for the navy base there, and those women were brought over by the GI who once stationed in Seoul, Korea and the demilitarization zone. Someone mentioned when big men like you couple with small women, you would achieve some clandestine goal of those rapers who assaulted young girls. I doubt you are spreading your gene because you are so proud a Nordic, don't you?

Genetically speaking, genes for blue, green, or hazel eyes are termed weak genes, and they won't survive in a sea of brown or black eye people, not even for two generations. http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/genes/w...eractive.shtml carried a technical article for you to chew.

I agreed with some experts on the matter of genetical selection. Ancient human beings who had left Africa must have possessed all sorts of genes, like different colored lemurs. However, when they arrived at a certain location, only the specific group with some particular traits had survived. Once those traits survived in certain areas, they became relatively stable because their population was nothing in comparison with the number of animals and beasts around them. Eraly human beings had to fight against animals and beasts for survival than against fellow human beings. Relatively speaking, in past 10,000 years, the first part should be quite peaceful, and only in second part of 5000 years did we notice the signs of civilizations and the multiplicity of human beings. I don't see any dramatic human migrations in past 5000 years other than the recent colonizations that led to efficient annihilation of American Indians on the American Continents and the efficient annihilation of aborigines in Australia. South Africa would be a good example to show how tough it would be for you guys to merge with your environment that you do not belong to. Human beings, with a design of male Y gene, had apparently only known to annihilate the enemy's Y gene, not incorporating the enemy's Y gene. Whatever grandiose talk about racial harmony is hard to achieve. By the way, your fellow beings only multiplied after your obtaining the new continents of Australia and America. Check any history book, and you will understand your folks could not raise a comparable army against the Mongols. Because there was no economy of scale in ancient Europe to support a bigger population, not because the Bubonic stuff had killed off your population. May peace be on earth.

[fhawkutoo]

"As to your Hmong people, I would only speculate that the French left some traits among them. The French, colonizing Indo-China since late 19th century, had systematically pitted one group of ethnic people against the other."

You dont know much about Hmong people do you? Some Hmongs have natural blonde, reddish, or light brown hair. Some have natural blue, green, or hazel eyes, and they're 100% Hmong, they dont have a drop of French in them. Hmongs (Miao) have lived in China for over 4000 years. Old Hmong folk stories tell that the majority of Hmongs had blonde hair and blue eyes. The Chinese killed off most of the Hmong with these features, because they were easily singled out. This one old Hmong man 90 years old can still recall a event of when he was about 13, back in the early 1910's, he saw all these hmong people running around screaming and crying, and he asked what was going on, and they said the Chinese were coming to kill all the Hmong kids who had blonde hair or blue eyes, because it was said that the Hmongs with those features were going to grow up into great leaders and overthrow the Chinese. So all the Hmongs who had those features or who had kids with those features all ran into the jungle to hide. True story. Its a trip, when most Chinese come to America or Canada, they all throw themselves at whites and all want to have caucasian features. But back in China they all want to kill those who have caucasain features. haha, If you are going to answer back please have some knowledge about the Hmong, hit up Hmong in a search or read a book on Hmong people before you do. You only sound stupid when you make assumptions. A good book about the hmong is:

Hmong History Of A People

By Keith Quincey