The Caucasoid descent of Chinese people

[countryboy]

You do make people busy, don't you?

First you need to know what a person of pride and heritage is like and a person of dignity and chivalry is like. We could trace our Y gene to our family name backward for hundreds of years and thousands of years. Proud people live in honor of our ancestors as shown in Confucian's ancestor worship, die for the honor of our surname, and cherish what we look like, no matter it is hair or eye. And, chivalric people fight wars in honor, don't hide behind armour, and don't bully enemies who don't have adequate weaponry for confrontation. Certainly, traitors always exist, and should those traitors dislike what their hair or eye color is like, so be it. Our Chinese males so far have exhibited a great cohesion for maintaining our heritage, even in the land of America, and we will carry on our heritage without distraction.

Back to your Hmong people again.

When I said I "speculated"..., I was assuming that there did exist some of the Hmong people who might carry something you wanted. I was not concurring that it was a truth.

Brief browsing turned up some good articles, and I want to invite you to read those. Shut up if you could not provide any URL to prove what you said. I mean no offence. I am too busy to engage in un-intellectual bbs talk.



http://www.jefflindsay.com/Hmong_tragedy.html

This baby at http://www.jefflindsay.com/gif/hmong_baby.jpg looks just like any Mongol you could ever encounter. Show me where he shares your traits.

<iframe src="http://www.jefflindsay.com/gif/hmong_baby.jpg" width="300" height="500"></iframe>



http://www.hmongarchives.org/

It claimed descent from Chiyou who was an overlord competing against Yellow Lord and Fiery Lord about 4500 years ago. It further said "The Hmong have already lost much of our history over the years because historical records and artifacts have been neglected, thrown away, lost or destroyed. Through the Hmong Nationality Archives we want to locate and make available the remaining materials in order to ensure that they are properly handled and preserved. This way the vital heritage of our nationality will not be destroyed or forgotten."

Wow, someone told you they knew more than hmongarchives.org

I had expounded the theory of Chiyou as original cultivator of Chinese culture already in my prehistory section. China's past 2800 validated records could serve as a mirror for the patterns 4500 years ago, and the Chiyou-YellowLord could be said to be a similar pattern between Han Chinese and Huns, between Tang Chinese and Turks, between Song Chinese and Mongols, and between Ming Chinese and Manchus.

I would continue on to expound the southern aboriginal people soon, and will present a much clearer picture of what those Hmong people's ancestors had been doing dynasty by dynasty.

[countryboy]

Prof Wei Chu-Hsien cited ancient classics <i>Shi-zi</i> (approx 338 BC works) in authenticating the ethnicity about barbarians in four directions: Guan-xiong-guo in the south, Chang-gu-guo (Chang-gong? long arm) in the west, Shen-mu-guo (deep eye socket) in the north, and Yuhu and Yujing as east-sea and north-sea seagods. Here, I will, once and for all, settle the issues in regards to Huangdi or the Yellow Overlord, i.e., i) semantic error in translating the overlord for 'di4' into emperor; ii) Nordic racist appropriation in attaching Caucasian tag to Huangdi. I will use <i>Shi-zi</i>'s record of deep eye socket people to the north of Huangdi as a corrobaration that Huangdi people were not of deep-socket eyes at all. Furthermore, I will expound the ethnic nature of various Rong people in the hun.htm section and clear the dispute in regards to the ethnicity of 'Rong' people.




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<b>Xia Chinese versus Rong - Differing In 'Culture', Not 'Blood-Line'</b>
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What distinguished Chinese from Rong or Di would mostly likely lie in the customs, not the ethnicity.

Zhou Dynasty's founder, per <i>Shi Ji</i>, <u>Gugong abolished Rong &amp; Di customs</u>, built city in a plain called Zhou-yuan under the foot of Qishan, and devised five posts of <i>si tu, si ma, si kong, si shi, &amp; si kou</i> per Shang Dynasty system. Similar to Zhou founder, Qin's ancestors had emerged from the barbaric West to become the ruler of China. In both cases, they discarded the Rong &amp; Di(2) customs and adopted the rituals of the central China of the time.

Shang Yang the Reformer claimed that he should be ascribed great contributions to Qin because he was responsible for renovating Qin's Rong-Di customs such as parent and son living in same bedroom and for differentiating the protocol of men from women.
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Scholar Liu Qiyu stated that <u>the difference between Rong and Chinese lied in 'culture', not 'blood-line'</u>.

In article <i>The Rong People In Nine Ancient Prefectures versus Rong-yu Xia People</i>, Liu Qiyu cited ancient classics <i>Zhou Yu</i>'s paragraph: "In the ancient times, Gong-gong-shi ... had first worked on repairing the 100 rivers (including the flooding of the Yellow River) ... Gong-gong-shi's descendant, Byron Yu (i.e., Lord Yu), repented over his father Gun's mistake in flood control ... Gong-gong-shi's grandson, Si-yue, had acted as an assistant to Lord Yu in flood control ... Hence, Si-yue was conferred the fief of Si-yue-guo Statelet and assigned the surname of 'Jiang' which included the clan name of 'Luu' ... Today (i.e., in Zhou Dynasty times), the clan names of Shen and Luu had declined in prestige and influence but the 'Jiang' family still prevailed in Qi Principality."

Liu Qiyu further cited ancient classics <i>Zuo Zhuan</i> and listed the statement of Ju-zhi, a son or prince of Jiang-rong, as paraphrased below: "Everyone had said that our folks, i.e., miscellaneous Rong people, belonged to the descendants of Si-yue ... Our various Rong peoples differed from Hua (i.e., Xia) people in cuisine, clothing, money and language."

Liu Qiyu speculated that the clan names of Shen-Luu-Qi-Xu etc, who entered China during Western Zhou Dynasty, had been the Rong people who came eastward to China earlier, while Jiang-rong would be the original Rong people who came into China during the Eastern Zhou Dynasty time period.




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<b>Yuezhi versus 'Jiang' Surname Tribe Of SanMiao People</b>
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In the Yellow River Bend area could also be found Yuezhi people. The relationship of the Yuezhi to Rong people is not clear. <i>Gua Di Zhi</i> stated that Yuezhi country included ancient Liangzhou, Ganzhou, Suzhou, Yanzhou and Shazhou, i.e., today's Gansu and western Shenxi Provinces. Among Liangzhou, Ganzhou, Suzhou, Yanzhou and Shazhou, it seems only Yanzhou prefecture would fall inside today's Shenxi Prov while the rest would belong to the so-called 'Western Corridor' to the west of the West Yellow River Bend.
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The section on Huns, in Sima Qian's <i>Shi Ji</i> and Ban Gu's <i>Han Shu</i>, stated that the "Donghu nomads and the Yueh-chih or Yüeh-chih (Yuezhi) people were stronger than the Huns". Extrapolating on this sentence, I could say that the Yuezhi people, who had arrived in Gansu Prov 1000 years later than Sino-Tibetan SanMiao people, might have been steadily exerting pressure on the Qiangic 'Rong' & 'Di' peoples and could have ultimately driven the Qiangic people towards Shenxi-Shanxi-Henan provinces for 1000 years, from the Zhou Dynasty ancestor Gugong (12th c BC ?) to Qin China's expelling the Huns from the Ordos Plains (3th c BC).

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Rond-di barbarians, who had made peace with Jinn Principality, had later split into Bai-di and Chi-di.
Baidi (White Di) dwelled in ancient Yanzhou (today's Yan'an), Suizhou (today's Suide) and Yinzhou (today's Ningxia on west Yellow River Bend). <i>Zuo Shi Chunjiu</i> stated Jinn defeated Baidi and remnants were know as Bai-bu-hu later. Chidi (Red Di) dwelled in a place called Lu(4), near today's Shangdang. <i>Zuo Shi Chunjiu</i> stated that Jinn Principality destroyed the Lu(4) tribe of the Chidi, and the remnants were know as Chi-she-hu nomads later.



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<a NAME="you_yu_shi"></a><!-- -->

<b>Yuezhi versus Xia People</b>
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According to ancient records, after Shang Dynasty overthrew Xia, remnant Xia people fled northward and westward, and majority of them returned to their ancestral home in southern Shanxi Prov, i.e., ancient 'ji-zhou' prefecture or 'zhongguo' the central statelet. Some of those Xia people who fled northward and westward, per early 20th century scholar Wang Guowei, would become the Yuezhi (?) in the west and the Huns in the north.


Should we buy Wang Guowei's speculation as to Yuezhi, then it would throw the discussion into an ethnicity dispute unless we discount the actual linkage between the Yuezhi of Gansu Province and the Loulan Mummies in Xinjiang Autonomous Region.

It is understandable that Wang Guowei might have blundered in early 20th century since Loulan mummies were not known at that time.
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I would now expound on the underlying logic behind Wang Guowei's fallacy.
Scholar Liu Qiyu cited <i>Guo Yu</i>'s statement in regards to You-yu-shi as proof that Yu clan had deep connection with Xia people. Liu Qiyu claimed that Yu-shi and Xia-hou-shi might have generations of inter-marriage the same way as Ji-surname and Jiang-surname or Khitan's Yeluu-shi and Xiao-shi did to each other. The statement from <i>Guo Yu</i> could be paraphrased like this: "In ancient times, Byron Chong-bo Gun also reigned in the land of You-yu-shi clan."

Byron Chong-bo Gun was the father of Lord Yu and dwelled in southern or southwestern Shanxi Prov, i.e., the east bank of today's East Yellow River Bend.
Yu-shi clan's locality, considered the second 'Xia Ruins' in archaeology, would be in today's eastern Shenxi Prov, i.e., Hancheng (west bank of the today's East Yellow River Bend) and Pucheng (west bank of Luo-shui River). Today's East Yellow River Bend was known as 'Xi-he' or western river because the Yellow River did not flow horizaontally into the sea via Shandong Prov but made a eastern bend northward for exit into the sea via Hebei Prov.

Guo Moruo located Wu-shan Mountain, Long-xian County, Shenxi Province as the place for the You-yu-shi clan by interpreting the character 'yu' as equivalent to the character 'wu'.

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It is widely agreed upon that after Shang Dynasty overthrew Xia in 1766 BC, remnant Xia people fled northward and westward, and majority of them returned to their ancestral home in southern Shanxi Prov. Those remnant Xia people remained on the two banks of the Yellow River Bend, across Shanxi-Shenxi provinces, for another 1100 years at minimum.

Per section <i>Qi Yu</i> of <i>Guo Yu</i>, Qi Lord Huan'gong (r. 685-643 BC), who proclaimed himself a 'hegemony lord' in 679 BC and destroyed the statelets of Shan-rong and Guzhu in Manchuria in 664 BC, had campaigned against Bai-di barbarians in the west. Qi Huan'gong was recorded to have occupied 'da xia' (i.e., Grand Xia land) and crossed the river to subjugate 'xi yu' (i.e., western Yu-shi clan's land). Grand Xia land, by the 7th century BC, would probably be lying in northern Shanxi Prov only since Qin Emperor Shihuangdi (r. 246-210 BC) had his accomplishments of unification of China inscribed with such words as "reaching as far as 'da xia' land in the north", namely, Taiyuan of northern Shanxi Prov. 'xi yu' certainly pointed to the areas west of the East Yellow River Bend, namely, Hancheng and Pucheng of eastern Shenxi Prov.

My conclusion is that Yuezhi people had nothing to do with the You-yu-shi or Yu-shi clan of the Xia people who were defeated by Shang people in 1766 BC.
Alternative studies of Indo-European migrations could be checked for timing and movement.

Wang Guowei and Xu Zhonhshu, including Oiu Qiyu, had all <b>mistakenly</b> pointed to the You-yu-shi clan as the origin for mutation into the first syllable of Yuezhi.



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[Romatic_Reviere]

I found your post extemely edfying keep it and i will lookingg forward to reading more posts from!

[Kharachi-warrior]

I think it's no doubt that ancient east Asia was a multi-racial land.



A study on the ancient population of Linzi, the capital of Qi Kindom, One of largest cities of China during Spring -autumn period.

http://www.racearchives.com/archived...ID=79998195172



The smallest genetic distance for the present-day Linzi population was that from the Mongols, followed by those from mainland Japanese and Koreans.

Surprisingly, the three smallest genetic distances for the 2,000-year-old Linzi population were from the present-day central Asian populations: the Kirghiz (Sary-Tash), followed by the Kazakh and the Uighurs.

Even more surprisingly, the three smallest genetic distances for the 2,500-year-old Linzi population were from the Turkish, Icelander, and Finnish, rather than from the east Asian populations.

[Kharachi-warrior]

Originally posted by prober
I detected there was an essay concerning the ethnic consist of "Wu Hu" which invaded China during the Jin Dynasty. The author's view was that the Turk which raided China later was a Caucasian tribe (there Khan described as with grenn eyes and red cheek, more evidance available) , "Wu Hu" (Xiongnu, Jie, Qiang, Di, Xianbei) were not.

There ever were 10 million Hunnic people( or Wu Hun ) which was about 1/2 population of Nothern China in total.

Originally posted by prober
But according to the Chinese ancient historical annual, the Xiongnu are such Nordic tribe with red hair and blue eyes like "Wushun". And, Jie, which was a branch of Xiongnu, also described as with high Nose Bridge, and "deep" eyes. After the collapse of their ruling to Han, the Jie people was distinguished easily because of their Caucasian feature and slaughtered (more than 200,000 victims). The historical work of the later dynasties also described the remained Xiongnu people as "Long nose" and "yellow hair". Until Tang dynasty, the "Qi Hu" which is the offspring of the royal Xiongnu people, still called "Hu tou Han se" which mean's they adopt the Chinese tongue, but still "foreign" feature.
Much other evidence can support the standpoint that Xiongnu are Caucasion,I don't want to illustrate any more. Some people believe the Xiongnu are Mongolian race, because the Roman historian said the Hun people who invaded were"brown skin, stocky body, slanting eyes" which are typical Mongolian trait. But, actually, the Hun who invaded Europe 5th century was not the descendant of Xiongnu. The contemporary scholars affirm they are the identical tribe just because the pronunciation of "Hun" and "Xiongnu" are approximately the same. And there is some relationship between their languege. I also want to point out that around the 5th and 6th century, there's another branch of "Hun" ruined the Persia and Northwest India, that Branch was called "White Hun" The Persian historian said that thier feature were different from "Hun", with white body. Hence, it seemed that, they were also Caucasian.
Now, let's come to Xianbei, many people noticed that, in the historical book, the Xianbei people were called "Bai Lu" means white invader (thief). And in the Great Work <<Zhi zhi tong jian>>, I found the following story--The Emperor Of Eastern Jin, Jin Ming Di (Shima Shao), was with yellow beard and hair, because his mother was a Xianbei female. Once he went to inspect his troop without notice, And the warriors all considered him as Xianbei people, then chased him as enemy. The folk songs at that time said, "Huang tou Xianbei jin Luoyang"--Xianbei is with "yellow head", it is quite possible that "yellow head" referred to their yellow hair and beard. Xianbei is an alliance of tribes; there might also be some Mongolian tribes in it, but the Caucasian consist was more obvious, which all Hans paid attention to it.

Mainly, Hsiung-nu people were Mongoloid race. but Northern groups of Hsiung-nu probably were a mix of Caucasian and Mongoloid. At the same time it seems that the population of Shang-dong also a mixed race.

Originally posted by prober

I'm inclined to be in approval of what Mr. Peng elaborated yesterday. The contemporary Chinese people don't dwell on the ethnic origin of the nation, most of them believe they are simply Mongolian race. That's not a correct concept.
The racial intermix in china began before any dynasty, but the Neolithic time. The skulls unearthed in the relics of Banpo Xi'an reveal the trait of Caucasian, exactly, the Nordish Caucasian. The Banpo civilian used to be the hybrid of Nordish and Mongolian (like the Finn today). We all know, the Banpo is the representative civilization of the Northern China Neolithic civilizations, we can infer, many other Chinese civilizations in that time were created by Caucasian or mingled people.

As I know, the greatest and oldest chinese civilization Yang-shao culture also were created by those who were caucasian race.

Originally posted by prober
The Hemudu in Zhejiang is the representative Neolithic civilization in Southern China. But after measuring the skulls detected there, it was extremely amazed that, they're of Negro characteristics!

They were australoid race who ever were the native people of Southern China.

Originally posted by prober
One renowned Chinese anthropologist stated in his work that "According to the numerous skeletons of Indo-Europe people unearthed in China and the feature of the Southern Chinese people today, the Chinese nation can't be classified into the Mongolian race simply. At an earlier time, many Chinese anthropologists also clarify that it's completely wrong to say the ancient skeletons discovered in China belong to the same race. The Mongolian couldn't be regarded as the only "Local Chinese". The Caucasian also had been inhabited in Eastern Asia since very early time. In Japan, the aboriginal Ainu people was finally confessed as the ancestor of current Japanese nation. The Ainu was the Caucasian tribe moved to the Japanese islands more than 20,000 years ago, while the Mongolian just reached Japan around 10,000 years ago. They intermixed and yielded the Japanese people now. The same procedure of intermixing also took place in Korea.

Originally posted by prober
Another famous event happened last year also support the idea--some researchers of biochemistry analyzed the DNA refined from the mummies in some ancient tombs in Shangdong province, and made a conclusion that these DNA correspond that of the European people. Another research discovered that the gene of Northern Chinese is more close to the Caucasian, rather than the Southern Chinese.

http://www.racearchives.com/archived...ID=79998195172

Originally posted by prober
The origin of Zhou, The third Dynasty of ancient China, is also doubtful. The time of the establishment of that dynasty is not far from the time of Aryan Expansion. The chariot used by the soldiers of Zhou just resembles the chariot used by Aryan invaders to India! More critical, the ancient Chinese work written by Mengzi said that, Zhou Wen Wang (the emperor of Zhou) is the people of "western barbarians" It's quite possible that a branch of Aryan intruded china at the moving of Aryan.

I'm not very sure about the origins of Zhou.

A study on Shang people who created the second dynasty of China. according to the outcome of study on the sketetons of Ancient Shang people, there're mainly 3 races who ever were living in Shang Kindom:

1,The first group is racially similar to Buryats, a Mongol-speaking group of Siberia.

2,The second group is racially similar to Eskimos.

3,The third group is racially similar to Papuans, a group of native New Guineans, Australoid.

There're also a little Caucasoid race and many other races who aren't determined which race they belong to.

Originally posted by prober
Someone even suspect the origin of the Qin Dynasty, which was the subsequent dynasty of Zhou.

Qin people were a "pure" Mongoloid race. see Qin warriors:


http://www.bmy.com.cn/wwjp2.htm
http://www.bmy.com.cn/wwjp3.htm

Originally posted by prober
At least, there was some independent Aryan tribes which didn't integrated with local Chinese or absorbed by local Chinese still existed in Western and central China at the time of late Zhou dynasty. It was recorded that the king of Qin attack the ruler of Zhou with some barbarous tribes but failed. That event happened a few hundred years BC, at that very time, the Bactoria in Central Asia was conquered by 4 Nomadic Aryan tribes, the origins of 3 of these tribes were definite. Now, some historians reckon the 4th tribe might be the failed Aryan tribe that moved back to Central Asia.
Until Han dynasty, the "Yue zhi" (pronounced as 'rou zhi, an Aryan Tribe) still live in Ganshu province, and sometimes also find the track of their activity in Northern China. And the region east to Tianshan Mountain (in the center of Eastern Turkeystan) was distributed by Saka (A branch of Aryan, whose language belongs to the Iranian Group, known as Scythian by Westerners and 'Sai Zhong' by Chinese).
Now, many scholars believe that many "Yi" and "Di" (the diverse barbarian tribes) recorded in early Chinese dynasties are Caucasian.
I'm afraid the origin Xiongnu can be traced back to Scythian. Because the record revealed that their custom were exactly the same.
Thus, the Chinese people nowadays contain abundant of Caucasian blood. But currently, they all belong to the same nation, that's because the ancient Chinese culture was so great that it could absorb any other races, it was a furnace to integrate all races. And the Caucasian, Mongolian created the grand Chinese civilization together.

It's that the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Australoid created the grand Chinese civilization together. especially in southern China, Australoid were the native people. it like what happen in India.






[Edited by Kharachi-warrior on 3rd June 2003 at 10:39]

[bisserk]

Chinese civilization was created by pure turks, The Chinese are a mixture of small amounts of what you call "caucasian" genes but they are not really, but from a race that used to inhabit South East Asia and the Pacific islands. They were long headed , narrow nosed like south asians but with lighter skin. YOu can see this trend in South East Asia and in Southern china were long skull is higher and narrow nose is also higher incident. The ancient turkic chinese are preserved in Japan island. Japanese language has too high amount of chinese lexicons as compared to other languages in the area, and it is also turkish grammatics. Japanese research I have seen also suggest genetic lineage to South China, and also Japanese has high amounts of polynesian blood as comparison to their closest turkic neighbors the Koreans. Therefore it is my conclusion that only the purest turks created China, Chinese language borrowed and was transformed into polynesian but you can cleary see the racial dominance of turkic race in South East Asia and china to conclude this. In filipines, papua new guinea, southern india there are pure negroids living in jungles yet they only speak polynesian. Doesnt take a genius to figure that those negroids didnt get there themselves or learned the language without some major whipping. And in Southern africa there is also magadascar, the great zimbawe and many misterious monuments near polynesians suggests that the predecessor of China and Japan was a much more organized system of rule over a much larger area.

[longer]

The indo-european people that merged into china are
believed to be Tocharians instead of Aryans(indo-iranians).
Tocharians and Aryans might originate from the same
area but Tocharians appeared and moved eastward much earlier. Aryans moved into iran and india while Tocharians
settled further east. They all have nomadic remains, Scythians/Sakas are Iranian while YueQi are Tocharian, but there's no clear cut division between Iranian and Tocharian tribes.