We owe Russia

[Zhukov]

There is a war known to Russians as the Great Patriotic War that lasted from June 22, 1941 to May 2 1945. This is the bloodiest conflict that the world has ever seen. 27 MILLION PEOPLE WERE KILLED! 24 million Russians, and 3 million Germans. People in the U.S. tend to overlook this fact. Most people that I know in America think that the Germans and Japanese were beaten solely by the U.S. THIS IS NOT TRUE! WITHOUT RUSSIA IN WW2 IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT GERMANY! America never faced the bulk of the German army until the Normandy landings in 1944. There was fighting during Operation: Torch in North Africa in 1942, and in Italy during 1943. But the U.S. only faced a fraction of the German army, while Russia had to fend off a much larger and more experienced Vehrmact. By the time U.S. and British forces landed in Normandy, The Red Army had liberated Ukraine, Crimea, and a large portion of Belarus. Within 1 year, the Red Army reached and crushed Berlin. Russia won the war. If Hitler conquered Russia,then he would have had access to the pacific ocean. Russia would have been occupied by the Axis. China would have been slaughtered. Rommel would have taken the Suez canal, India, dispised the allied occupation would have provided millions of new soldiers to take the war to the allies. Britain would have been invaded and conquered. And eventually, North America would have been invaded. If you totally disagree or don't understand what i have just said i will explain it more thoroughy.
There was a plain between the axis powers called Operaiton: Orient. It was literally their plan to conquer the world. Operation Orient called for Germany and Japan to conquer europe, africa, and the middle east, while Japan, and her supportive Thailand would conquer asia. This is how it would work. After Germany and her european allies occupied western europe, and the balkans(which happened), Russia was to be invaded. After Moscow and Leningrad were taken, Russia would most certainly be forced to surrendur. Japan would occupy East Siberia, Sakhalin and Kamchatka. Germany and the european axis would occupy the russian heartland, the caucasus, trans-siberia, and western siberia. This would give the axis powers access to the middle east(which largely supported the axis), India(which also supported the axis), but most importantly, North America. After the middle east joined the axis they would secure that flank and proceed to India. Much of India opposed Britain and supported a pro-axis movement. India's population was 780 million at the time. Think of all the soldiers the axis would have had if india came under the axis sphere. next britain and africa would be seized. french colonies would be occupied since france had fallen. and after britain fell, her colonies would be ceded to the axis as well. Spain, which was fascist would now join the axis powers and invade portugal. with spain and portugal now in the sphere. the whole of europe, asia and africa would have come under axis rule. Germany was also at the time seeking an agreement with the south american nations. they would join in the fight against the allies. in time they would push up the coast. japan would have pushed U.S. forcess out of Hawaii. Australia would have been occupied. And eventually, Germany, Italy, Japan, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, India, Iraq, Iran, Spain, Thailand, Brazil and whatever other supportive countries would have invaded central america, canada and eventually the U.S. But all this depended on one thing, Germany's defeat of Russia. Without the defeat of Russia, the axis would have never been able to reach their middle east supporters, and win the support of Spain and south america. Fortunately this never came, and Operation: Orient dissolved into a pitiful dream of Hitler. So, I know in my heart that my very exhistance is owed to Russia.

[ANDY-J2]

Don't forget that many thousands of allied merchant seamen lost their lives bringing convoys of supplies to Murmansk.The Red army were transported in American and British trucks and had artillery,uniforms and rations which came from the West.Spitfires and Hurricanes were used by the Red air force.Would they have enjoyed such military success were it not for the thousands of tons of supplies which they received?The uprising which occured in Warsaw towards the end of the war could have been succesful were it not for Stalin's refusal to allow RAF supply planes to refuel at Russian bases.Certainly the Russian people made enormous sacrifices to defeat Germany but it should not be forgotten that their government was very often guilty of pursuing narrow political and ideological goals and were perfectly happy to sacrifice their citizens needlessly whenever it was deemed expedient.

[Zhukov]

don't be so sure andy. the supplies, tanks, and planes we transmitted to the russians were insignificant compared to the volume of raw materials and war machines that the russians were producing themselves. At least 95% of the Soviet War Machine was financed and produced by the USSR itself. The supplies provided by Britain and the U.S. were token tributes to make sure that they would fight on our side and not Hitlers.

[ANDY-J2]

Zhukov,
Certainly the industry of the USSR provided the vast majority of it's war matériel,however in certain key areas such as transportation and specialised engineering,bridge-building for example the west provided equipment and expertise which was crucial to the Russian war effort-especially in the early part of the war before Russia's war effort was in full swing.The west also provided tanks which were markedly inferior to the existing Russian models and the Russians were extremely scathing about their performance in combat.As to the reasons for supplying the Russians,I think Churchill's observation that he'would sign a pact with the devil if it would help defeat Germany'sums it up.The political leaders of the west were only too happy to set aside ideological differences to ensure the annihalation of the Wehrmacht in the East,thus ensuring that the allied armies would not face such stiff opposition in western Europe.

[Boris1]

Just re this subject of the war against Germany in Russia.
Recently out here in Australia our TV station "SBS Australia" has televised a series on this subject titled "Russia's war - Blood upon the snow" This series contains a lot of footage of the WW2 battles you have been describing here & was certainly a huge eye opener for a westerner such as myself. Effectively it backs up almost everything I have been reading here & I would recommend anybody with an interest in this subject to contact SBS Australia to see if they will supply a video of the series, I think you would not be dissapointed.

[_-_5TAL1N_-_]

Sorry Andy-J2 but the Russian army were not supplied with any western equipment, their airforce was complied of Ilyushin-IL2 planes not spitfires, Also the Red Army had the best artillery and tank division in the world, none of this was taken from the western governments. I suggest you study further into the battle on the eastern front especially the battles of "Stalingrad" and most notably "Kursk" then you will understand that the Russians were supplied with their own equipment. Why would Russia borrow their tanks when they had the best tank in the world at that time the T-34 and also the best assault riflem, the AK-47. Please re-consider your previous post because it made you look like an uneducated, uninformed individual. Zhukov I agree completely with you 1st post in this thread. America took all the credit for Russia's hard work which cost many Russian lives, also the germans lost 9 million people while the Russians lost 22 million, these are the correct facts. This was due to the bombings of Russian towns by the Luftwaffe while Russia mainly concentrated on defeating the German military not killing their civilians. Apart from this small fact you information is correct and very intelligently written.

[ANDY-J2]

_-_5TAL1N_-_,

You seem to be putting words into my mouth.I suggest you reread my post with a rather less jaundiced eye and I'm sure you will find that my statements are factual.