Russian should be made an official language in Ukraine

[Voyager13b]

Originally posted by mikeaverko
Polls show that this has more popularity than the current president of Ukraine.

Up to 70% of Ukraine's population prefers to speak Russian.

Give it a generation where Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine (duh, makes sense, no?), and retake that poll. I think there might be more national pride in the home language at that point than there currently is in Russian language after many decades of Soviet domination.

No doubt, Ukraine should maintain close economic ties with Russia in the future, and there should be no prohibition to Russian speakers wishing to be involved in government service, but every nation has the right to maintain the viability of it's native tongue, and that cannot be done by becoming submissive to the language spoken by an old master.

Russian may well become the standard second language in Ukraine, but it is important for the health of the nation that Ukrainian is maintained as the first language of the land. All the land. Measures must be taken to protect the intersets of the current population of strictly Russian speaking Ukrainians, as they are just as important as any other citizen, but just as strong measures should be taken to make certain that no matter what other language they become skilled at, future generations of Ukrainians are fluent in their native Ukrainian language.

It seems to me that those who grasp at any straw (like language) in order to keep Ukraine in the shadow of Russia are hoping against odds that someday Ukraine will be absorbed by Russia for all time. I hope that never happens. The argument for a common language as an aid to understanding and trade is bogus. One look at Europe today is proof that people can have national pride, national identity through language, and cooperative unity through history and geography.

Mikeaverko, SRD and I disagree on the Ukrainian issue, but since you have had your tallywhacker slapped over there at Ukie.com, you seem to be on a mission here to start an anti Ukraine forum within Ru.com. No matter what your dream might be, Ukraine is an independent country now. Crying to Putin, or to others who miss the idea of Ukraine being a submissive region of Russia won't help you a bit. Russia is not going to invade eastern Ukraine because the legitimate government there wishes to ensure that children everywhere in the country learn Ukrainian as their primary language. It's a healthy goal.

Voyager

[mikeaverko]

Voyager:

My banishment from there is purely political as has been firmly established with the presented facts.

SRD and I seem to be in agreement on a good number of issues.

You seem to say that because Ukraine is "independent" right now, then based on that, it should remain such. No way!

I take issue with your view of Ukraine having had a "submissive" relationship with Russia. Another example of politcal bias. No forceful Russocentric moderator at ukraine.com, but you as moderator at russia.com seem to take a west Ukrainian nationalist slant.

You mention the the decades of Soviet rule in Ukraine without mentioning that Russia and much of Ukraine were together as one for a much longer period before 1917. Go back more and you will see that western Ukraine was part of a united Russia when no linguistic or religious diferences existed. The idea of Ukraine is something recently new in history. It can mean different things to different people.

Places like Donbas, Crimea and Odessa are clearly Russian in character and this Russian character can be clearly found in Kiev and Poltava as well. Kiev was the first Russian capital.

Germany was reunited and I see no reason why Russia shouldn't as well.

Russian isn't a second standard language in Ukraine. If anything, it's the more commonly spoken of the two. Ukrainian as a language isn't so clearly defined as well.

Here's a good article on the language situation in Ukraine.

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/8484-11.cfm





[Edited by mikeaverko on 8th May 2005 at 13:35]

[akhmet-bek]

...Since mishaaverko is here.....

[mikeaverko]

?

Must make sense to him.

[Voyager13b]

Mikeaverko,

Since Kiev was the first Capitol of Rus, are you suggesting that Ukraine can lay claim to all lands west of the Moscow river as it's own territory?

You can dream all you like about the possibility of future expansion of the Russian Federation, but I don't think it will happen anytime soon. Ukraine is a recognized country with solid borders that are also recognized by Russia. No matter what the distribution of language within that territory, it is in the best interest of Ukraine to firmly establish Ukrainian as the primary language of all the people in a reasonable period of time. Having different official languages in different regions will only serve to prevent the entire nation from becoming united within a generation, and to keep ethnic turmoil alive to feed hope for your dream. Russia can be used as a model for that thought. Within it's territory, from west to east, and north to south, there are many languages spoken. Still, the language spoken in central government offices, and in trade within the nation is Russian. There are many other languages in daily use throughout the Federation, but Russian language is the glue that binds the nation, and makes commerce, representation, and the ability for it's citizens to travel from region to region possible.

As I stated earlier, it would be wrong for Ukraine to abandon it's Russian speaking population, but it would be worse to allow their children to grow up without teaching them to be fluent in the national language.

That view has nothing to do with being on the side of the east or the west in Ukraine. It has to do with being on the side of all of Ukraine, and wishing to see it prosper as a nation. It is being on the side of common sense.

I know little Ukrainian, as Russian is my favorite language along with English. My favorite place to spend free time is in Russia, and not Ukraine (even though Ukraine makes it easier to do). I support Russia in every way I can, and neither follow the Kremlin line all the time, nor the Washington line. My international phone bill is all Russian minutes, not Ukrainian minutes.

I don't see anything at all anti-Russian in supporting self determination for Ukraine, as it is not a part of Russia any more. Russia and Ukraine need to tackle their own internal problems, while maintaining close ties along the way, rather than coveting each others territory.

Voyager

[mikeaverko]

Your initial point in the last post of yours firmly supports the basis of a formal Russian-Ukrainian reunification.

Heck, as is there isn't much of a border between them.

FYI - the ruling Riuriks moved the capital away from Kiev up north when the Trident (Ukraine's readopted coat of arms) was still the emblem of the monarchy.

Like I said previously, borders change all the time. Therefore, what's in the present, isn't necessarily etched in stone for the future.

Anti-Russian types like to pretend that Russia and Ukraine are two separate nations like Poland and Russia or Poland and Ukraine. That's bad history and best and a lie at worst.

[Voyager13b]

Originally posted by mikeaverko
Your initial point in the last post of yours firmly supports the basis of a formal Russian-Ukrainian reunification.

Heck, as is there isn't much of a border between them.

FYI - the ruling Riuriks moved the capital away from Kiev up north when the Trident (Ukraine's readopted coat of arms) was still the emblem of the monarchy.

Like I said previously, borders change all the time. Therefore, what's in the present, isn't necessarily etched in stone for the future.

Anti-Russian types like to pretend that Russia and Ukraine are two separate nations like Poland and Russia or Poland and Ukraine. That's bad history and best and a lie at worst.

What can I say? Thank God that you are not the arbiter of national borders in this day and age. I expect that you will continue to use abrasive phrases to describe those who wish to see Ukraine prosper (ie:"Anti-Russian"), as you seem to be a one trick pony, and don't know any better.

The fact remains that Ukraine IS an independent state, no matter how bad the concept sticks in your craw, and there is nothing 'Anti-Russian' about accepting the fact. Even Putin, an ex KGB official, and strong Russian nationalist, has kept a safe distance from people like you, as he understands reality. Russia has no modern claim to Ukrainian territory, and has never presented an argument to support such an idea. He had his shot at setting the the foundation for bringing Ukraine under the Russian umbrella last year, and he blew it. He thought Russian political tactics would stand in Ukraine. They did not stand, and even though I don't directly blame Putin for the events that took place in the first election there, it is clear that Putin has accepted the fact that Ukraine is not likely to become another Byelorus, and is best treated as an independent partner, rather than a potential pawn.

Ukraine will do fine. Russia will do fine. I hope losers (I mean that in the political sense) like you will move on with your lives, and let both nations grow to the best of their abilities, rather than to keep fueling the fires of division in order to keep your dream alive at their personal expense.

I support Russia. I support Ukraine. Russia doesn't have to own Ukraine in order to benefit from good relations with it. I don't have to dream about misery befalling the people of Ukraine in order to be supportive of Russia. You need to move on. There are plenty of issues affecting life in Russia today that you can champion on the net for the benefit of Russians in general. This Ukraine thing isn't one of them, and constantly harping on it isn't healthy for any of the parties involved.

Voyager