U.S. Presidential Election: Indecision 2000

[Ronald_Barbour]

Dear Friends:

I have been reading and posting on this BB for the last couple of weeks, and have read a number of interesting posts that rise well above the usual internetese statement of "You SUCK!" -- when making a counter arguments....

I know that many of you - who are European intellectuals and students - are closely following the U.S. Presidential election of 2000 -- and may be somewhat puzzled by the fact that a winner has yet to be announced ten days after the voting was finished.

Let me assure you that this is not normal for the USA -- usually our elections are conducted like clockwork and the victor known early on election night. For example, in 1980 Ronald Reagan was declared the victor at 8 P.M. EDT, only two hours after the polls closed in the eastern USA. Also, there are usually no recounts in presidential elections --- in 1960 Nixon was well within his rights to ask for a recount, since the vote in one state was very close; however, Nixon did not want the USA to be made weak by a long election process -- and allowed Kennedy to take office.

But that was a different era -- although the two major parties disagreed on internal policy -- in the matter of international affairs they were on the same page -- and the election of 1960 happened in the middle of the Cold War, and the Democrats & Republicans wanted to present a united front against International Communism.

The situation in 2000 is quite different-- Communism is no longer a threat and the USSR can only be located in the dustbin of history. Furthermore, the USA has survived as the world's only superpower, and enjoys a sort of hegemony over other nations. It must noted also that the USA economy is doing quite well with the lowest unemployment rate in modern history.

I think that these factors have led the Right and Left in American politics to a showdown. As I see it the Right -- the conservatives (Defined as those who would conserve liberty) -- are determined to roll back the Welfare State (read socialism) enacted by the liberals (Defined in America as the socialists) in bits and pieces since 1933.

Therefore, the Democrats seeing that the election of a republican president (The Republicans already control the Senate and House) would lead to a rollback of socialist legislation, as G.W. Bush is even more conservative than Ronald Reagan. Also, control of the executive and legislative branches of U.S. Government would lead to control of the judicary, as it is expected that several openings in the Supreme Court will shortly be announced.

My Question? What is the international opinion on this situation? Do you or do you not agree that the root cause of this conflict in the U.S. Presidential Election is two ideology viewpoints that are impossible to compromise on -- the Republican/Conservative platform of capitalism, limited decentralized government and the supremacy of individual rights -- versus the Democratic/Socialist/Liberal axis of authoritarian centralized government, direct or indirect control by Washington of education,industry and business, and group "rights", i.e., one's identification with a racial/gender/sexual orientation group determines one's place in the community, not one's individual merits. Finally, do you or do you not agree that the Democrats are trying to steal the election? After all, G.W. Bush still leads after two recounts -- Are the Democrats in favor of recounts until Gore wins. Also, there are many charges of corruption by the Democrats in the election process.

Thank You,

Ronbo274@aol.com

[Nonson]

Actually, I'm more in favor of dismissing you, utterly. I don't like your kind.

[Dr_Woland]

Hi Ron

>> For example, in 1980 Ronald Reagan was declared the victor at 8 P.M. EDT, only two hours after the polls closed in the eastern USA. <<

But surely, Ron, this is because previous Presidents have been declared on the basis of Exit-Polls conducted by the media, long before the actual *votes* have been counted. It is not physically possible to count nationwide votes in those two hours. The business of counting peoples actual ballot-cards had been long forgotten. Now we open-up the boxes and count them properly, large discrepancies begin to emerge.

>> Communism is no longer a threat <<

As George W Bush so memorably said: "Back then we knew who they were, and they knew who we were. Now it's not so clear who exactly they are". It's great to have this kind of clear statement of the foreign policy the US will pursue if/when he's elected.

>> My Question? What is the international opinion on this situation? <<

Frankly, I believe it's the right of the American people to choose their own balance between government/taxation on one side, and social support policies on the other. I have my own views and I back those up with my vote in elections in my country, but I don't seek to impose those views on other countries, and I accept that what I believe to be the most needed solution in my country might be inappropriate in other countries.

However, we can look at models of what MIGHT happen. Sweden, for example, enjoys legendarily high standards of living for almost all its people. Life is safe, guns are banned, education standards are high.

Chile, as another example, is a country in which a tiny minority of people are fabulously rich. The military is all-powerful. The majority of people are very poor, educational standards are low, and the rich live in guarded enclaves because they live in terror of attack by the poor. Violence is commonplace.

It seems to me, Ron, that you prefer the Chilean model? Which is great if you are one of the top 5% in Chile. Not so great if you are born in a different strata.

Regarding your comment: >> group "rights", i.e., one's identification with a racial/gender/sexual orientation group determines one's place in the community, not one's individual merits. << I'm afraid I must radically disagree with you, and am considerably angered to hear this nonsense repeated in public.

You seek to disenfranchise large sections of your populace on the grounds that they do not share the same ethnic background or social/sexual orientations as yourself. Who, exactly, are YOU, to dictate what shall be society's norms? This strikes at the fundamental core of democratic society - to seek to deny equality of opportunity to people on the basis of their ethnicity or sexuality.

A Government is the Government of ALL of the people, not just the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Pro-Gun Pro-Death-Penalty Homophobic conformists.

If you want an international perspective, then when Europeans read this kind of stuff, it just confirms our stereotypical images of America as a land of fat hypocrisy, where redneck values masquerade as polite "conservatism". You write that >> the conservatives (Defined as those who would conserve liberty) << but your meanings are entirely opposite. You aim and conspire to deprive people of their basic liberties. You hold up your hands in horror when a bunch of innocent kids are killed in a High School by two crazed classmates - next day it's business-as-usual down at the gunstore with George W Bush's personal blessing. What kind of "liberty" did those dead kids enjoy? The right to be killed by homicidal gun-nuts?? Now tell me that if their teachers had been carrying guns too they coulda slugged it out with the attackers? If we follow this argument logically, we end up with "ARM THE UNDER-FIVES".

>> Finally, do you or do you not agree that the Democrats are trying to steal the election? <<

We in Europe find it unbelievable that there are Americans who are prepared to let Bush into office on the basis of vote-counting which is known to be MASSIVELY incorrect.

Frankly I think the Electoral College system is a heap of crap, but if that's your system, then so be it. But shouldn't the result be based on HOW MANY VOTES THE GUY GOT??

I hate to tell you this, but the rest of world is laughing long and loud at this. How hard can it be to add-up all the votes for each candidate?

The attempts by George W Bush to have CORRECT counts stopped point-up that the guy's a crook.

You're quite right to say that America is the hegemon of the present-day world. Clinton bombs Montenegro, and the American people applaud him (despite it being the wrong target and a friendly country - yeah, but what does that dumbass know?). But for having oral sex with a woman who wasn't his wife, they impeach him!!

So we look forward to a future in which American military initiatives in countries they don't understand - and don't even have maps of - slaughter thousands of innocent victims. The victims go to their deaths secure in the knowledge that the only woman allowed to give their killer a ******* is Mrs Bush, and I bet they feel much better about being blown to pieces by a guy who is not an adulterer. Happy warm apple-pie America.

Dr Woland.

Greetings Ron,

Like you said, YOU FOLKS WANT TO ROLL THINGS BACK. The rest of us want to improve on things and move forward.

Basically the devision is as follows; on one side are the GUN NAZIS, the ABORTION NAZIS, and the JESUS NAZIS. On the other side are the rest of US. We know which side you are
on.

The RADICAL RIGHT WING NAZIS go around calling their group CONSRVATIVES. The facts are that they do not want to CONSERV anything. They advocate RADICAL REACTIONARY,
RADICAL REGRESSIVE changes that would take our country backwards. I am thankfull that the people are recognizing the CONSERVATIVES
for who they are. This will get them in larger and larger numbers to vote.

RON, your 15 minutes of fame are just about
over.

Good luck.

[Nonson]

Ron is probably one of the beer drinking good old boys who just happened to get snared in the web of the dimwit 'retardists' organization called the GOP. He'll be alright after he gets the piss, ah Buds, kicked out of him. Peace

[Ronald_Barbour]

Dear Friends:

Thanks for the courtly response by one and all, especially Dr. Woland, who once again puts his colonial cousin in his place....

Sincerely, Ronbo

Hey Rombo,

That's it? Nothing futher? I guess you know
when you had your ass kicked. Just like all the other mealy-mouths.

Good Luck.