To Sashenka

[Shpulka]

Sashenka:
Finally,
about your feelings for immigrants - who cares ? It is not
for you to judge what kind of choice people made for themselfs and there children.Nobody is judging your choice.

Shpulka:
How many times I have to say that I don’t care about immigrants?

Sashenka:
As for what is my opinion on what is going on over there -
once again,it's my opinion.All I told here is truth and
you can choose to like it or not to like it - it doesn't
change any single thing.
Shpulka: Uninformative message. Only emotions are here and there is no facts.

Sashenka:
If you have to say something new about Russia today - say it.
Shpulka: Well, I’m trying. But every time you begin to speculate on emotions.

Sashenka:
At last,I would like to know
where exactly I misinformed people on Russian forum?
Shpulka:
Ok, here are your words:
[quote]Originally posted by Sashenka
I am Russian and,trust me,Russia is poor.
[quote]
You, may be, was poor in Russia, also you parents, neighbors, friends were poor or still is poor. But it doesn’t mean, that the whole Russia is poor. Besides, let me remind you, that America is one of the most reach countries in the world. And we have only one “gold milliard” of 6 milliards of people on the Earth. Do you believe that, for example, Nigeria is richer than Russia? Ok, if you want to tell everybody here that Russia is poor, give the country to compare with. And, at last, it seems to me that such speculating as “trust me” is impossible here.
I can say that the problem of Russia is that distribution of profits in Russia is very irregular. Have to notice I’m not a communist, I just read much about the fact in our economical magazines.

Sashenka:
I never
got the answer even though I asked you.What did I say to get you so judgmental and agressive?

Shpulka:
You’re very tiresome!I won’t tell you my point in the fifth time.

Sashenka:
I,myself,graduated from two Universt-s.
Shpulka:
And what kind of the education have you got exactly?

Sashenka:
The truth is, no matter how many oil or gold or potential the country has-what matters is human resorces.

Shpulka:
Then you had to say that Russia is poor in intelligent human recourses.
As for me, I can add, that, really, many intelligent and educated people left Russia. But don’t forget that there are some of them still here and new generation supplement the society. Not so many young Russians are going to leave as it was 2-5 years ago. There are some of course, but most of those have never been or been for a very short time abroad.

Sashenka:
The truth is,the connection between
immigration and population is very strong!I don't understand how you can ignore that millions left the country
and say that it has nothing to do with population in the country.
Shpulka: Have you count that "millions" or if you haven't, have you got someone who have?

Sashenka:
I am one of those who can state the simple fact,based on,not only personal observation and life
expr.,but also on ability to analyse the situation.
Shpulka:
I’m asking you the second time if you have any economical, political or, may be, social education to have an ability “to analyse”? And have you got any access to last scientific researches in that spheres; researches that published only in Russia and are not published abroad or in Internet? For example, the magazine “Questions of economic” which is publishing by Russian Academy of Science?

Sashenka:
The truth is - Russia is just started its recovery,very painful
one.
Shpulka:
I’m trying to say that the whole discussion, but you read very inattentively.

Sashenka :

Russia is loosing people,young,intelligent people,who can make all the difference in building the future, are leaving or trying to leave or left.
Shpulka:That’s true. I’ve told that even now there are people who want to leave. But less, than it was in 1998 f.e.

Sashenka:

I didn't
want my little girl to grew up in the country with no choices.
Shpulka:
First of all and again. It’s not my business, what choice you’ve done. So, please, don’t perceive my words as a try to judge you. I just not agree that you saying “Trust me, Russia is poor”. If there were no choices for you and your daughter in Russia, it doesn’t mean that there are no choices for me and another Russians here. I do believe Russia has a great future.

Sashenka:
And,let me ask you,where did you get the idea that I am trying to tell you that I am smarter than you are just because I made my choice differently?

Shpulka:Kindly, find and give in quotes such my idea, if you’ll find it.


Sashenka:

All this time
I had to support all my family and my child - the responsibility,young lady,you know nothing about!So,what makes you believe that you have more right to be "a serious opponent".
Shpulka:I can’t find any connection between your supporting you family and an idea of “serious opponent”. As I remember, I used that phrase to show, that I prefer to have a discussion with people who have good skills in problem and well educated. So, it doesn’t matter, if you’re a supporter of somebody or not.

Sashenka:
You are making a very clear point:who is not with you is against you.
Shpulka: Where? Give any quotes.

Sashenka:
Nobody stops you from sharing your opinion about Russia today.Please,do so!Regurding this 2 years away
from my country:as I told before,all this time I was a provider for my whole family.And if you think that I don't have a clear idea about what is going in on in the country you are mistaken.Trust me - I know what is going on.

Shpulka:Good. But why I see here just your idea about that Russia is loosing people, your emotions about this and no more? Haven’t you speak about constructive discussion? If you want to discuss only the problem of the population of Russian nation or the immigrating in a new millennium, not about other Russian negative and positive changes, let it be so. Then, let’s look for real facts and statistic information and use not only our own experience and notices. I want to emphases that I care just about what’s happening now in Russia, not what was happening in 1998-1999.

Sashenka: Finally,
about your feelings for immigrants - who cares ? It is not
for you to judge what kind of choice people made for themselfs and there children.Nobody is judging your choice.
Shpulka: No comments. All is said befor.

Sashenka:
All I told here is truth and
you can choose to like it or not to like it - it doesn't
change any single thing.
Shpulka:
There is no question whether I like or not what you’re saying. Nevertheless “all I told here is truth” the truth is for you and for your experience. I need your thoughts conformed with scientific facts.


[Edited by Shpulka on 25th October 2001 at 20:56]

[jutka]

Shpulka,

Are you trying to convince everyone that Russia, a country where 40% of the population lives below poverty level, is doing fantastic economically?

Why would Sashenka lie?

Do you think there is no emigration from Russia?

Jutka

[Shpulka]

Originally posted by jutka
Shpulka,

Are you trying to convince everyone that Russia, a country where 40% of the population lives below poverty level, is doing fantastic economically?

Sashenka:
The truth is - Russia is just started its recovery,very painful
one.
Shpulka:
I’m trying to say that the whole discussion, but you read very inattentively.

Originally posted by jutka:
Why would Sashenka lie?
- I've never saed she is lieing. What I'm saying is that she is not objective in her views using only her own experience, not scientific data.

Originally posted by jutka
Do you think there is no emigration from Russia?
I've told befor about. Read attentively.

[Shpulka]

Ãîäû Ýìèãðàöèÿ èç Ðîññèè, òûñ. ÷åëîâåê
(Year) (Emigration from Russia, thousands)
1987 9.7
1988 20.7
1989 47.5
1990 103.6
1991 88.3
1992 102.9
1993 103.7
1994 105.2
1995 110.3
1996 96.4
1997 83.5
1998 80.4
1999 85.3
2000 62.3
Èñòî÷íèê: äàííûå Ãîñêîìñòàòà ÑÑÑÐ è Äåìîãðàôè÷åñêèé åæåãîäíèê Ðîññèè, 1996ã., 1998 ã., 1999 ã., 2000 ã. (Source: State Department of Statistic)
http://www.irex.ru/publications/polemika/9/dolgih.html

[rikbe]

Shpulka,

What you don't mention is that it becomes more and more difficult to emigrate to W Europe for Russians. They are immediatly send back if they don't have the proper papers. Till a few years ago this was not done, they could stay more easily.

I hear an entire different story about what is going on in Russia than what you tell from my fiancee, she is 40+ and still lives in Russia. But not for long anymore.

[benCA]

according to those numbers, 1,099,800 in total left Russia.
I read somewhere that New York city has close to one million Russias only, if thats true, then above numbers cannot correct.

rikbe, why don't you tell us some of what she told you. i'm interested

[mastodon]

Russia has lost population every year since 1992, when its resident population peaked at 148.4 million (Institut National d’Études Démographiques [INED]). Prior to the fall of the USSR, the Soviet government subsidized residence in the northern and eastern regions of the country. Population growth from the sixties to the fall of the USSR boomed in these areas. When the subsidies stopped, the population plummeted in these ares. Most of the people who left moved to the southern and western portions of Russia. High concentrations of people in these areas help "crowd out" many Russians into other countries.

Another reason for the declingin population is the declining birth rate and the rising death rate. Put bluntly, more people are dying than are being born.

RAND is a think tank outfit that researches things like this. Here is an excerpt from a RAND report:

from "RAND: Population Change in Russia"
IMMIGRATION

Net immigration has not been able to offset natural population losses, but it has been able to keep the total population from dropping even more than it has. In 1994, for example, there were 2.3 million deaths and only 1.4 million births across Russia. In that year, net immigration to Russia was its peak, with 1.15 million immigrants arriving in Russia and less than 340,000 emigrants departing. This meant that, rather than suffering a population loss of about 900,000 that year, Russia suffered a population loss of less than 100,000.

Recent statistics indicate that immigration is declining and, as a result, is unable to provide population stabilization, because natural population losses are continuing (Figure 2.5). Statistics from the Russian Federation (RF) State Committee on Statistics, or the RF Goskomstat, show that, after peaking at more than 800,000 in 1994, net immigration fell in four of the next five years, with the economic crisis of 1998 helping to push net immigration down to less than 165,000.

If you would like I could post the link to the whole report, but it is big and talks about much more than just Russian immigration/emigration.