COMPASSION

[Straighterway]

Dear Mr Ungaro,

--the bible WAS USED to-- do XXX

well, u said it and that's exactly what i was talking about in my last post. people twist the teaching of Christianity and the Bible. show me where the Bible ACTUALLY encourages any of those things that u listed that it was USED TO justify.

hey, why do i even bother to talk, the Bible says it all.

--speaking of these things [in the Scripture] that are hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.--IIPeter 3:16

when i read such things in the Bible for the first time i was amazed how much up to date there are. it's like the author knows exactly what's going on rgiht now.

there's a grain of truth about homosexuals in ur post though. still, the Bible doesn't teach HATRED towards them, it teaches that this kind of behavior is not right.

now about 'who is this carpenter?'

--no foundation, evidence or wide acceptance of the theory of Jesus being Gods Son--

no. no skeleton of Jesus made of some substance coming from another world has been found.
--faith is the substance of things invisible, the evidence of things not seen --[paraphrase]

it's impossible to please God without faith. however, knowing our human 'technical' mentality, God did put some things there to help us believe. as evidence. like what He did with Thomas. God did not reject him right away for not believing, instead He moved towards him and helped him in his weakness. [true compassion, recognize it?]

same with us. there's the Bible code, there are prophesies, there are people being healed from desease in the name of Jesus. u can meet those people and hear them talk almost in every area. there's speaking in tongues which i witnessed it myself.

and i don't think a person will doubt much the existence of Jesus if they have Him walk and talk with them and feel the joy of His Spririt.

now about --religious indoctrination.--
first of all the statement that Christians would rather stuff a hungry child's mouth with doctrine then with food is a plain big lie.

yes, Christians do think the doctrine of Christ's more important than material things, but, again, read the Bible. wherever Christ and His disciples go they heal first, feed first, raise the dead first, and preach later.

and religious indoctrination is just a bad name for preaching the Gospel. yes, we believe Christ is the only way of salvation and it's natural for us who have experienced it to have a desire of sharing it with others. God died with the worst death imaginable to give us life- now after He has done that we have no excuse to reject Him anymore.

one more thing. about 'religious zelots'.
--if anyone amongyou thinks he is religious, and does not briddle his tongue but decieves his own heart, this one's religion is useless. pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.--

love, ev.

[This message has been edited by Straighterway (edited 01 July 2000).]

Dear Evelyn,
When I said that they used the bible for all of those horrific deeds, I was referring to the fact that they used exact passages, as written. They used "Gods Word" to proclaim
the world flat and kill those who disagreed.
They used "Gods Word" to proclaim the earth as the center of the universe. If the bible is "Gods Words" she sure has caused a lot of tormentation. Please see my previous posting
to see how "Gods Word" is behind a lot of EVIL action in the USA. Please understand that I have some very dear friends who see things the same way as you do. I am sincerely concerned for them. Let us use the HOMOSEXUAL issue as an example. You will admit that according to the bible they are
SINNERS, period. Not illegal, but sinners.
"Gods Word" is overriding secular laws in a secular state. "Gods Word" is used to spread hatred, often resulting in murders of these people. Soon science (DNA and SUCH) will be able to prove that some of these people are born as homosexuals. What then? How come that God did not know that? You better start thinking up excuses now. If the bible is "Gods Word" why are we told different stories about the birthplace of Jesus? Surely God would know? When was Jesus born?
If he is Gods son, the father would know. The fact is that the bible is not "Gods Word"
and Jesus is not "Gods Son". Although, both the bible and Jesus have a place in our life.
In a different context. What about Armageddon? Are you folks goin to put an end to life on this earth just because the bible
said so. With the weapons on hand today, you can just forget about the THOUSAND YEAR BLISS
How do you see it?
Good Luck

[Straighterway]

Dear Mr. Ungaro,

i also have met people who hold ur point of view, some of them are dear to me, including my own mother. i am concerned for them as well.

*when passages of God's Word were used for evil it was misinterpreted and exagerated.

*about homosexuals. yes it is a sin according to the Bible. but the Bible also sais not to murder or to hate. to walk in peace with all men in as much as it depends on us[paraphrase]. so how can u say --spread hatred, often resulting in murders of these people--came from true Christians who just obeyed the Bible.

now u started talking about the possibility of genetic disposition toward homosexuality. that wouldn't change much. i could start arguing this point right now, but what u said is not even a fact, it is just a supposition, so it would be better 4 u to be sure of it first and then use it as an argument.

*about the Birthplace of Jesus. what are the different stories? kindly point out the contradictions.

*about nukes. the Bible talks about Armageddon. honestly, i have not studied revelation as much as other scriptures. but the Bible does say that whoever picks up the sword will perish by the sword. does that sound like promotion of weapons of any kind to u? and seriously, u make it sound like nukes were invented by Christians to make armageddon happen. facts: nukes were created and spread to the unacceptable quantities by elements that have nothing to do with Christianity.

*about Jesus not being the Son of God and me having to think up some new excuses. our attitudes will change, circumstances will change, and even what we now consider as facts can and will change, BUT my faith won't change or be shaken even if the whole world's knowledge and understanding turn against it because it comes from the One that overcame the world.

He answered me when no one else would listen, brought me out of such desperation and turmoil that u can hardly imagine, and He talked to me. it is now useless to tell me it's not true and Jesus does not exist, it's just too late, cause He has already touched my life and i know He is there anyway. and so do all the people that have been healed by Him.

luv, Ev.

Greetings Evelyn,
Luke says one thing, Mathew another. One says
Bethlehem the other Nazareth. How can this be? I hope that this does not apply in your case, but the ones before you on this board who were so deep into religion were either recovering drug addicts, recovering alcoholics or with some other form of dependency. (Valechka excluded) In my opinion
they went from one form of dependency to another. We live in a secular country. The law tells us what is right and what is wrong. Religious designators like SINNER
have no place in public life. It is a form of TERRORISM when these kind of designators are imposed on legal behaivor. Using the US as an example, would you agree with me that
religion, faith, church attendence has no effect on public behaivor. Consider the crime rate, the abuse of legal and illegal mind altering drugs, teenage pregnancy,
the use of abortion as a form of birth control. Excuse me, what are they talking about in those churches. Gods word fails to make an impression on the faithful. No Christians did not develop the atomic weapons. It was Christians who have used it.
I am concerned that they will use it again.
Just because the bible talks about the good defeating the bad. Have you noticed that
Jews, Hindus, Muslims have been denigrated
to a sub-human status by the Baptist? They have been called devil worshippers. I hope that they don't get pissed, some of those
people have the bomb. Do not think lightly
a bout this. Everywhere where there is fighting on this earth today, it is in the name of RELIGION. To what end?
How do you see it?
Good Luck

[Straighterway]

Dear Mr Ungaro,

--now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea...--
[Matthew 2:1]

--Joseph also went up from Galilee out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem...so it was , that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son...--
[Luke 2:4,6,7]

The reference to Nazareth comes from the fact that that's where Jesus and His family lived after they returned from Egypt. it was also the city where Mary came from.

please, if possible, let me know where ur info [less than accurate, as i plainly proved above] comes from. the story of Bethlehem and Nazareth along with quotes from the Bible is displayed on every single Christmas tv. show in the US!!! i regret to say this, but u being unfamiliar with the most elementary and well-known story of the Bible, makes me seriously question the credibility of ur information.

please do me one favor though. when u start thinking that i also am some kind of a recovering drug addict, please have the courage of saying it to my face. [just making sure ]

P.S. maybe i sound like i'm mad, but i am not. <smile at ya>

i will reply to the other part of ur post later, right now i don't have time.

luv always, Evelyn.

Greetings Evelyn,
I did say in my posting that I had hoped that you were not a member of the group.
We had a very some memorable discussions on this board with some of them. Flyingchicken
is the one that comes to my mind just now. I wonder where she is today? Jesus of Nazareth,
in those days indicated that he was born in
Nazareth. Yes I am familiar with all basic concepts in the bible. The date of his birth
is yet to be decided. They should have asked his father. I am talking of Joseph, naturally. I wonder how he felt when they told him that Jesus was not his child? What a good movie that could be in todays world.
Oh well, I din't want to denigrate your faith. You have been a very interesting and fairly un-agressive. Maybe the agression will come later. I am ready. Incedentally, you have a lot of nerve living near San Fran
and having your attitude on gays. They will find you. Just kidding.
Good Luck

[Lorisa]

A very interesting discussion. I have two thoughts to add:

Christianity, since the 4th C. has been the leading religion in the West. Sometimes it was accepted by princes and kings not because they honestly thought it was right, but because it was the cultural norm. As time went on, if you weren't a "Christian" you were shunned from society. The king couldn't make a move without considering how to appease the pope. The church had political power, and used it. Politics and Christianity were tightly linked in Europe. I'm not sure how much of that we can say still exists today. Many of those "Christians" did not pick their faith, but later used their "faith" to justify whatever they wanted politically. Christianity became a political tool to please the masses. I think all would agree, religion should not be so politically heated. This politicalization should, perhaps, not even be considered in the category of "religion." Perhaps it should be recatogorized as pure "politics."

Yes, religion and politics are still tightly knit together today. Sometimes it is hard to decide which is what. But this politicalization doesn't just exist in Christianity. Take a closer look at other religions as well.

Also, in regards to homosexuals, I am not a scientist, so my information is second hand and may be wrong, but let's break this down anyway.
Start with alcoholism, or gluttony, both are "sins," both are talked about as such in the Bible. A sin is a sin. No matter what the sin, we are seperated from God. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.
So, to start, all sins seperate us from God, no matter how great or small the sin is.
I have heard from several sources that a tendency towards alcoholism is genetically passed on. Does that make a person a sinner from birth? Well, we all have tendencys towards some sort of "sin," selfishness, etc. when we are born. It is part of human nature, and I'd argue, part of "the fall." So if we were to say a genetic tendency towards alcholism makes that person a sinner, then everyone, to some degree is a "sinner" from birth.
But what if that person never touches alcohol? Then that person does not become alcoholic. Or, what if they do drink and find that they become alcoholic. They see that they can't control their drinking once they've started, but decide to learn discipline. It is hard and takes time, but eventually they overcome their desires and refrain from drinking any alcohol. They know where that path will take them, and they don't want to follow it.
It takes time, but they are able to over come. I use alcoholism as an example because there is more evidence that the tendency is genetically passed on, and also it is generally accepted by society as a sin, regardless of ones religion.
You can probably see where I'm going with this. Some people desire sex more than others, they have stronger "drives" if you will. Some desire sex with people of the same sex.
I believe that being homosexual is a sin, as much as being heterosexually active outside of marriage or being a glutton or an alcoholic is a sin. It is taking something that God has created for a special purpose, and warping it for our own desires. I believe God has reasons for giving us guidelines and limitations, I could guess what they are, but that can wait 'til another day. Sin is inherit in our being, any Christian will tell you that. (see reference above.) But we can overcome sin. So Christains do not need to find an excuse for there being a "homosexual" gene. If there is one, as a Christian, I would not be suprised. A part of the fall, inherit in us because man desires to follow his own will instead of God's will for him. It goes back to the Garden of Eden.
As far as the churches reaction to it,
I blame it on human nature. People like to point fingers away from themselves instead of at themselves. But this should not be the Christian response. "Pull the plank out of your own eye before you try to pull the speck of dust out of your neighbors" Jesus says (paraphrased - I'll try to find the reference in a bit, if any of you know the verse, please post it, reference and all, here).
I hope this can add to this discussion a bit. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
-Lorisa