Generation

[Nonson]

Your desire for literalness destroys that which might being seeking a spiritual resting place. Peace

[Nonson]

Mission10, a zeal for connecting Christ's teachings to ancient Judaism is mostly a useless endeavor. Nothing in Judaic lore and belief will shore up the ever-present weakness all to evident in Christianity. The horrible corruptions caused by Paul is beyond repair, and it has been known for centuries. The essential 'intactness' of Judaism does not easily admit to theft of its theology. In his creation of Christianity, Paul sought to do just such an un-godly act. The body of Judaism didn't suffer from this spiritually vile act, but the people of it did. Why would a Pharisaic Jew bring such harm upon his own people through the creation of such an obsenity? Because he was an apostate and probably half-mad with unbounded greed. The Jews recognize him for what he truely was. It shameful that Christians don't have the same degree of honesty. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The literati of Judaism will be the first to tell you that the Torah is not literal. So if you based a goodly portion of Christianity on the Five Books of Moses then how is it to be of a literal nature? Seeking to use the soul of Judaism for ends other than what was intended for it is a moral wrong, and it is insulting to the believers in Judaism. In His rejection of the doctrines of the Pharisees and Sadducees the Christ showed that He did not base His Teachings upon what they believed. He was put to the test by the Pharisees, not because he was blaspheming Judaism so much as creating an opposing doctrine which the people seemed to like, and he was successful to the point of death. ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If the Old Testament is the Book of the People of Israel, then how is it also the Book of the Gentile? If you maintain that both is correct, then we have several rather large and un-wieldly problems. Out of this scenario arises the contradiction: if Christ came as savior of the Gentiles why then the statement: "I have come but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel."? Are you saying that all gentiles are of the House of Israel? Why didn't He merely say: "I have come to all the world?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Judaism was not the womb of Christianity. Christian teaching is not an altered expression of Judaism. Judaism does not support Christianity in literature or sacred text. Christianity is contrary to the core of Judaism. Judaism could never find truth in the savior known as Christ. They are vastly different systems of belief and worship. ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Whatever your belief in Christianity may be you cannot find refuge in Judaism. In attempting to do so you'll meet rejection at every step. Too, if Christianity is the sine qua non then why does it need Judaism to lend it credibility? Is it that without Judaism all of Christianity has no foundation to rest itself on? Every Christian says that Judaism is wrong, and that Christianity is the right way of belief and worship. Can a thing gain legitimacy by stealing it jewels from something more complete and perfect? ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A discourse such as this might go on for years without exhausting the conflicts and contradictions. Nothing is going to be achieved until those most intimately involved take on a cloak of spiritual honesty. All ateempts at proof and the almost instant denial are the commonplace. It has been for two thousand years. The arguments and concept underlying them are the same. It is a curse. Peace

[This message has been edited by Nonson (edited 25 July 2000).]

[Straighterway]

Greetings.

Dear Nonson, as u are undoubtedly fully aware, that, from the way u put it, either u or Paul is an apostate. the Father knows the truth. how will i?

[Nonson]

Not really, Ev dear, the tree is known by its fruit. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To get rather simplistic about it: There is Christ and His teachings, and then there is Christianity and its teachings. The breach is an abyss. Peace and Blessings

[Mission010]

"I have come not to abolish the law, but to fufill it" Jesus said this. what do you suppose He meant? Or was it just a false statement altogether?
The way I see it is that the pharasees of Jesus time had become dead in their religion, just as the church of our time has become dead in its. Jesus spoke against the doctrines of man that the pharasees were enforcing. Doctrines that had totally distorted God's original purpose in the law. Working on the Sabbaoth had been intrepreted by the pharasees that 'nothing' could be done on the Sabbaoth -not even the healing of the lame, or eating heads of grain.
Do we not agree that the God of Isreal is the Father of Jesus? How then can we seperate the Father's law given to Moses from the Father's ultimate plan of redeeming the whole earth through His Son?
Please Nonson can you at least clear up the issue for me of whether or not you believe the God of Israel to be Jesus' Father. And how, if so His actions are not at least all relevant to us in some way.
I could go on, and I will later. But I'd like to go peice by peice and clear some of these basic points up first so that I know where your coming from.
-For His Kingdom

[Nonson]

Greetings Mission10. There is a perplexing, mystifying, and awesomely profound Book called The Zohar. Its depth is so great that no man on earth fully understands it. I know of no man who has ever claimed to be able to comprehend all of it. _____________________________________________ Why do I bring up the above information? In the mystical way, it explores the kind of questions you ask. They are queries that cannot be answered with an honest certainty. _____________________________________________ It is maintained by the Orthodox Jews that the Torah(Five Books of Moses)is merely the name of God. Would I dare dispute these men of wisdom. Not so. They are very steady and firm in their spiritual knowledge. _____________________________________________ That Jesus and Orthodox Judaism have a common bond and purpose has been my contention for years. I find 'messiah' in Judaism. Do I say that Judaism should find 'messiah' in Jesus? Its not my call. Why would I choose to be so impudent? _____________________________________________ You miss the point of my posts, and it is my fault for not stating it more directly. Lets try again. Messiah is not about religion. Messiah is not about convention and ritual. Messiah is about living and doing in the now, not about talking and thinking of the past. Life is in the moment-NOW. It is not in the past, nor is it in the future. NOW is the Kingdom of Heaven. The NOW is the time for Repenting. You cannot be Redeemed in the past or in the future. Your Salvation is in the NOW. _____________________________________________ In Christ teaching, word and action are welded together in the NOW. Would talk today and think to act tomorrow? That is doctrinal error. Word and action occur together in the MOMENT. _____________________________________________ This is my interpretation of Christ's Doctrine. It works for me. I've seen it work for others when all else failed. Why would I want to trade it in for theology? Why do I need ritual? The only thing I need is Christ. In Him I find that which is sufficient unto all things. That is enough for now. Peace

[Mission010]

I too, have respect for the learned men of Orthodox Judaism. But someone is wrong somewhere, and it happends to be that Jesus is their Messiah. I also believe the Jews to be God's chosen. Jesus went to the Jews first before He told His deciples to go to all nations. The Jewish people were meant to be first, and givin first oppertunity at the gifts of God.
We have to say they are wrong however, because they live for the "ritual," not for the Spiritual. Does that mean they can't communicate with God? No, i don't believe that either.
Of all the religions in the world, the Jews and Christians are the only ones who serve a living God.
So they as well as the Church, as well as those who do not now know Jesus, need to come out of the dead places and into the ones that are alive.
I do agree with you, however that the time is now, not the future. That the past is there for our understanding, learning, and not there to be lived in. The future is the same, while still alterable, it is not to be our concern, for "tomorrow will have enough worries of its own." Here we definately have common ground.
I just hope you understand that it is my greater purpose to show the Jews as God's chosen people, and by taking away the Pentatauch from Christianity, you make Christianity a Gentile faith, instead of a faith born from the heart and Son of the living God of the Jews.
However I understand that their beliefs don't undergird ours, but our faith is a fulfillment of their beliefs. If they would believe in and follow Yahshua Messiah. Their faith would again become alive, because they would understand that He is not the abolishment of the law, but the fulfillment of it.
Disclaimer: I am not Jewish, but I believe that they are able to walk in much power, if they will turn to Yahshua. I am also confident in the love God has for the Gentiles. We are not loved less, but there is a special place for the Jew.