FOR RAIN

[theja]

Hi Rain, you posted Deut. 7:1-2; 20:10-17 (will adrress Num 31:17-18 later as it needs more clarification).

(By the way Luke 19-26-27 is a parable and Jesus never instigated any voilence against any man -- will touch on that later, too).

God is a God of justice with absolute MORAL STANDARDS. He cannot tolerate sin -- that is why any wrongdoing needs a payment or atonement acknowledging the sinfulness.

Remember, as sovereign, God judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their gross sins.

So God called Israel to introduce His justice and moral standards on earth. Because of that, on many occasions, God Himself put to death many Israelis for violating His laws. For example, the defeat at Ai (Joshua 7), the judgment on the house of King David (2 Samuel 12), the wiping out the Northern Kingdom by Assyrians in 722 BC, and the deportation/exile to Babylon in 586 BC, etc, etc, etc.

So as far as God is concerned, the nations living in Canaan were under the judgment of God. And God only used the Israelites as instruments of that judgment. In that context, the mandate to wipe out the inhabitants was given (Deut. 7:1-2; Deut. 20:10-17, the verses you mentioned).

But wait a minute. In no uncertain term, God also warned the children of Israel that if they practice/follow what these pagans do, God will not spare them judgments. The same rule applied to pagans and Israelites (Leviticus 18:24-30).

(And what were the pagans guilty of? see some lists in Leviticus chapters 18 to 20 --- incest, bestiality, rape, child sacrifice, etc. Also sleeping with slave girls --which Muhammad allowed his people, and he himself slept with his maid -- Deut. 7:18).

[Edited by theja on 20th December 2003 at 21:13]

[Rain]

Originally posted by theja
Hi Rain, you posted Deut. 7:1-2; 20:10-17 (will adrress Num 31:17-18 later as it needs more clarification).

(By the way Luke 19-26-27 is a parable and Jesus never instigated any voilence against any man -- will touch on that later, too).

God is a God of justice with absolute MORAL STANDARDS. He cannot tolerate sin -- that is why any wrongdoing needs a payment or atonement acknowledging the sinfulness.

Remember, as sovereign, God judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their gross sins.

So God called Israel to introduce His justice and moral standards on earth. Because of that, on many occasions, God Himself put to death many Israelis for violating His laws. For example, the defeat at Ai (Joshua 7), the judgment on the house of King David (2 Samuel 12), the wiping out the Northern Kingdom by Assyrians in 722 BC, and the deportation/exile to Babylon in 586 BC, etc, etc, etc.

So as far as God is concerned, the nations living in Canaan were under the judgment of God. And God only used the Israelites as instruments of that judgment. In that context, the mandate to wipe out the inhabitants was given (Deut. 7:1-2; Deut. 20:10-17, the verses you mentioned).

But wait a minute. In no uncertain term, God also warned the children of Israel that if they practice/follow what these pagans do, God will not spare them judgments. The same rule applied to pagans and Israelites (Leviticus 18:24-30).

(And what were the pagans guilty of? see some lists in Leviticus chapters 18 to 20 --- incest, bestiality, rape, child sacrifice, etc. Also sleeping with slave girls --which Muhammad allowed his people, and he himself slept with his maid -- Deut. 7:18).

[Edited by theja on 20th December 2003 at 21:13]

Hey Theja, thanks for the extensive reply. I appreciate the time you've spent answering my questions.

Im more or less clear on Deut 7:1-2, however in 20:10-17, :

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deuteronomy 20:10-17) "

I do not understand, how can there be religious freedom if those cities that do not agree to being enslaved ( "if it agrees to make peace...e" ) must be slaughtered ( "strike all men with sword" ).

First, why does God need men to punish the "evil doers" ? Is he not Omnipotent that he cannot do it himself through an earthquake, or some kind of cataclysm?

Second, does it not occur to you that in a city, it is impossible for EVERYONE to be a sinner. Why should all the men all be slaughtered? What about doctors, or teachers, and general population that are civilian?

Third, assuming that they might all potentialy be sinners, then why on Earth is such capital punishment used? Does not God judge all men and women on the Judgement Day? Does God not let us live out our lives till the end, any way we choose, and then punishes us? Why did he not kill Hitler if he knew what he was going to do?

Fourth, why should men be killed and not women? If incest, sodomy, beastiality are men/women sins, then women are equally responsible and thus deserve the same punishment. Are women and men not equal in God's eyes? Tell me, does a sin weigh the same for a male or a female?

And Fifth, even if we accept a different punishment for women, then why should ALL women, indiscriminately be turned into slaves? Does God say that women are lower than men? Is slavery allowed? Again, how is it possible that there are no women civilians in a city?

Either God is male according to Christianity, or this verse has some serious holes in it. I personally think that God does not have gender, does not have sons nor daughters, neither beginning nor end.


One other thing, concerning what you said about beastiality being a sin, I do remember that the noble Crusaders would take their own private sheep with them on a journey. How can you explain that?

thanks again, and Im waiting for your clarification on the numbers verse.

However the most ardent question I've asked was the one about Jesus and whether he ever advocated himself to be God.

Also, where on Earth did you read that the Prophet slept with a slave? Prophet freed all his slaves after his contact with God, his first freed slave was an Assyrian black man named Bilal, who became the first Imam of Islam. ( this sets clear questions of slavery and racism in Islam ).

The other questions stemming from this could be why did the Church segregate white churches and black churches in America before the civil rights movement?

But I think thats enough for now. Do you have further questions regarding our noble Prophet Muhammad or Quran? Feel free to ask me, my friend.

Im glad we are exchanging opinions this way. Islam promoted religious discussions with other religions.

R

[theja]

Rain, please just give your response without having to reproduce/paste the previous post. This way the thread will not be cluttered with needless repetitions.

This is not about religious freedom. It is about judgment. You completely ignored the scripture justification I quoted and added your own confusion. While establishing His moral standards, God was teaching the people that sin will be judged. Starting with Israel, God was establishing a universal standard of holiness/morality. So He used Israel to judge sinful nations; at the same time, when Israel disobeys, God punished them with the same standards.

Also to insist God should judge people by accidents, or natural disasters is a faulty thinking. Yes, God can do that, but not always. Because sometimes, righteous people are in the mix. For example, God forbid, but if I die in a plane crash, it is not because I am under judgment --- it could be for several reasons, such as pilot error, or inclement weather, or engine failure, or terrorist action. Many factors are at play and we should never put God in a box: He has to do it this way, etc.


According to you, was Muhammad a partner and associate with Allah?

What if someone simply say: I proclaim there is no god but Allah! That's it. Is he a Muslim?

[Edited by theja on 22nd December 2003 at 03:07]

[Rain]

Theja, you contradict yourself. Do you, for any moment, think that September 11th was not in accordance with God's plan ? Do you not think that everything, absolutely everything in this world works because God wills it?

God punishes people by other people. Thats how the world works.

According to you, was Muhammad a partner and associate with Allah?

What if someone simply say: I proclaim there is no god but Allah! That's it. Is he a Muslim?

Finally, you are starting to grasp my point of view and away from the stereotypes.

No, Muhammad was in NO WAY a partner of God, nor an associate of God. He was a human being, and a huble servant of Allah just like all of us are. Anyone can be like Muhammad if he/she leads a moral and just life.

God does not have partners nor associates. God is ONE. And for your information, I personally always say "There is no God but God" and do not include "And Muhammad is his Messenger".

All religions were corrupted, Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Jews modified their scripture and made it for Jews only, Christians started worshipping a human being, disregarding his message, and Arabs have started to hold Muhammad's life more important than the Quran.

Im a Quran purist, I believe Islamic world should go back to following Quran only. So much horrible distortions have occured from people like Al-Bukhari, so much misinterpretation, etc. Degradation of the Islamic world is directly linked to Muslims straying from Quran and into volumes of narrations called hadith.

I'll give an example, -

Quran says that the hands of the thieves must be cut. But not "cut off" ! If we disregard all the narrations, and understand the meaning of the word "cut" as used in the Quran, we will realize that it means "marked". That is, if you steal, you are marked on your hand, so the public can see. The actual punishment in this sense is social punishment. Not mutilating people as grossly misinterpreted by Wahhabis movement.

Among the other examples is Aisha's age, which is another myth of the Arab world. Aisha was around 18-20 when Muhammad married her, and even if we take hadith narratives of likes of Bukhari as authentic, her proposed age contradicts the historical timeline. Let alone, of course, that Quran itself forbids such a marriage.

Why I hold Quran as the most sacred scripture? Simple, regardless of the corruption of Arabs, Quran itself was never modified, is available in its original language, unaltered, unmodified. It is the scripture that the whole world is destined to follow one day, having converted by choice. Quran even prophesizes that if Arabs do not follow Islam properly, he will give it to someone else.

Quran is a miracle, a scripture unchallenged for its justice, tolerance, logic and so much more. Democracy, Human Rights, Justice for Males/Females have been there for 14th centuries, long before such notions came into existance in the Western world.

The biggest contemporary miracle of the Quran is its mathematical composition. I dont mean mathematical patterns that are found occasionally in Bible, I mean a super-human matrix code that holds Quran together. In the future, this will be the testament to Quran's devine nature.

The events in the Middle East today are all in accordance with Allah's plan. Everything has been prophesized. Allah is uniting USA, liberating the Middle East, and grooming the Gog and Magog for the final confrontation as prophesized in Bible as well.

God guides those he wills, and leads astray those he wills.

peace,

Rain

[theja]

Rain, you got it wrong. During biblical times, even the Israelites did not know God's way completely. Revelation were still unfolding. So God was destroying sinful people by teaching Israel not to follow their ways.

The Bible is a study in God's progressive revelation, culminating in the coming and finished mission of Jesus on earth.

Besides, God directly spoke to the people through the prophets.

Today the situation is different. Same God, same moral standards (now completely revealed), but universal society.

Concerning 9/11, God never commissioned it. The devil used hate-filled fanatics to destroy lives and property on that horrendous day. Caught in the massacre were some fine Christians who were received in heaven immediately. But the terrosists have gone to meet with Muhammad you know where...

Let's arrange this way. In this thread I'll answer your questions; in another thread: FOR RAIN 101, I will ask you questions.

[Rain]

First, since our boards are finally properly moderated, I will share more knowledge about Islam/Religion. It was difficult to talk when so much flaming was around.

Theja, I do not say that 9/11 was an act that God would encourage/forgive. I said eveyrthing that happens in the world is according to His will. Including 9/11. I am sure that most of the people who died there, muslim and christian and all other righteous women and men, are in heaven now, and they probably wouldnt want to come back if they were given a chance to.

Even devil exists for the purpose of God. God is absolute, the only reason atoms live and planets rotate each day is because He allows it. Thus, everything is in accordance to his will. Everything.

Even what is happening in the Middle East now. Even what is happening in Chechnya now. Crusades, 9/11, Holocaust, etc. Death ( Departure from this life ) is the ultimate gift God has in store for us, so if we were absolute in our belief, death wouldnt seem like a big deal.

9/11 unified your country and allowed the beginning of democratization of Middle East from corrupted teachings of Mullas.

And you are dead wrong about Muhammad. God knows how many myths and legends perpetrated by biased historians have entered your head. Muhammad was the messenger for ALL people, including me and you. But whats important is not him, its the message that he was assigned to deliver.

The message of Submission to God, and God Alone.

Christianity has been severely altered from its original message, and I think only few passages should be treated as divine. True scriptures of Torah, Bible and Quran are in harmony with each other.

Theja, why do you believe in what priests made up? Why do you not seek the One true God? Humanity is destined to follow ONE religion.

Rain

[theja]

Rain, everthing happening in the world is NOT ACCORDING TO GOD'S WILL.

God has shown His will in the Bible and many people are living in violation of God's laws.

But God does monitor everthing happening in the world. And He will judge everyone in the next life.

I'm sorry, only those who anknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior will be admitted in heaven. John 14:6; Acts 4:12.

The Gospel is inclusive, in that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved (John 3:16). The Gospel is exclusive, in that all who try to reach God by other means will be refused entry in heaven (John 10:1-9).