FOR RAIN 101

[Rain]

Did you read what Aisha said of her fist sexual encounter with Muhammad? She said I was nine.

Are you prepared to listen when you enter a dialogue? "her" verses are narrated by the mentioned narrators. My arguments provide contradictions of these authors. So Im not saying that "these are false writings".

No, no, they were written by these guys no doubt.

What I am simply saying, using rational logic and concrete examples and evidence, is that they are contradictory. That is all I am saying, Theja.

Concerning not allowing below 15 year olds into battles, the argument is weak. Muhammad laid down rules for others, but Allah always make exceptions for him. Muhammad was above the law. That is why he can never be a prophet in the biblical tradition

Yes, I knew you would say that, as did the original Muslim scholar who replied to his other christian friend, so here is a reply to that.

This is what another christian person said in reply to this article :

"This is a weak excuse. When the Battle of Badr and Ohud occurred Ayesha was 10 to 11 years old. She did not go to be a warier, like the boys. She went to keep Muhammad warm during the nights. Boys who were less than 15 were sent back, but this did not apply to her."

( gosh you're predictable, Theja )

and this is the reply:

The author contends that because Ayesha (ra) was not taken along to be a warrior, but for other purposes, therefore, the age limit set for boys did not apply to her.

The point referred by the author can only be taken as a possibility, not as a fact till the time that the author provides clear evidence to support his opinion that the age limit set for boys did not apply to girls, in general, and Ayesha (ra), in particular.


I'll be glad to see some factual information on your part, Theja. You have accused the prophet, and now I would like you to prove that you are right, or apologize for trying to pass this for a factual info.

Just rational logic, Theja, nothing more. Thats how the society works. Thats how court rooms run and thats how justice is carried out.

thank you,

Rain

[theja]

I'm glad someone think alike. This goes to show that Muslims are blind to Muhammad's errors, but non-Muslims can see his behavior.

(I am PREDICTABLE here because the behavior of Muhammad has become predictable. And I simply predicted the action of Muhammad -- he can break the rule, and if any Muslim dare to question him Allah will come and defend Muhammad).

You Muslims cannot see the CLUES that Muhammad have been spilling. For us we can see that he was a charlatan. Using the name of Allah to scare others into following his whims, yet at the same time breaking all the rules himself.

Yes, I'm predictable because I expect others to see the same character of Muhammad that I see. He became a devious man, telling others to do what he refuses to do himself. That is not a man of God by any stretch of the imagination.

But I know you cannot see the faults of Muhammad. That is the problem of Muslims.

After marrying this child, his second wife Sauda lost her turn. But I commend Muhammad for the retirement benefit she (Sauda) got -- a house, maids, and food supply.

One-fifth of all the loots belong to Allah and his associate. That's how he can provide for his numerous wives. Rich prophet. Allah must loved him so much to treat him like a Hollywood star.

[Edited by theja on 25th December 2003 at 06:54]

[Rain]

Theja, the Islamic narratives contain many different texts, and if you read at least half of them, you would see that these verses are highly unreliable. I am not saying she wasn't nine. Im not saying she was.

I am saying, and listen carefully, that these sources are contradicting many others. Do you understand what Im saying? This isnt about me being Muslim, I could as well have had been an atheist, because I present logic in my arguments. I use the same source you do : Bukhari and Islamic narratives.

I have given you 12 solid arguments, with references to other narratives where I directly show you that these verses cannot be taken as solid proof.

Aisha being six or nine is only a possibility.

Furthermore, it is only a possibility if you disprove some of the arguments first, which you still haven't.

Hijrah is the beginning of Muslim calendar. I will refer to Hijra dates as AH ( After Hijra ). Aisha married Muhammad (PBUH) at 1 AH.

The main arguments, in summary, are:

1) That portion of narratives was questioned by other narratives of his time. They are mentioned as "highly unreliable". ( Argument 3, Argument 4 )

2) Aisha, as accepted by this author was born 8 years before the Hijra. The same Bukhari narrative states that Aisha was "a young girl" when sura 54 of Quran was revealed. Sura 54 of Quran was revealed 9 years before Hijrah. ( Argument 5 )

This presents a contradiction. How could she be "a young girl" a year before she was born? This is the same author.

How do you explain it, Theja?

3) The Muslim law stated that no children were to accompany men at war. Can you find me evidence of that law being cancelled for girls, and specifically for Aisha? ( Argument 6 )

4) Aisha's sister, Asma, was 10 years older than Aisha.

Asma was 100 years old when she died on 73 AH. That means she would have been 27-28 at the time of Hijrah. ( 100 - 72 ). Therefore Aisha must have been 17 or 18 at the time of Hijrah ( thats when she married ). ( Argument 7 )

Do you have any evidence to contradict this statement, Theja?

5) Jahiliya - the time before Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad.

Abu Bakr - the father of Aisha.

Prophet received first revelations at 610.

First year of Muslim calendar, 1 AH = 622

//

Now, Tabari states that all the children of Abu Bakr were born in the pre-Islamic period, Jahiliya, i.e before 610.

Now, if Aisha was born before 610 ( she wasnt the first child either ), she could not possibly be nine or six. ( Argument 8 )

Now, I've only summarized arguments 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 so far, can summarize the rest too. But for now, can you answer these?

How do you explain that, Theja? Since you know so much about Bukhari and Muslim narratives, maybe you can enlighten me?


You see Theja, it is these tricks I am talking about. Christian missionaries trying to blackmail our prophet in order to coerce Muslims out of Islam. But rational logic always wins over prejudice, and I call upon you to answer for your irresonsible slander of our prophet. If you cannot, please retract your statement that Aisha was six, and accept it only as a vague possibility.

I have openly given you all the facts. The ball is in your court. And don't change the subject please.

Please address EVERY point I have given you.

I am absolutely honest in my discussion with you, and I expect the same committment from you Theja. I hope this was only a misunderstanding on your part and not intentional conviction.

//

By the way, I am spending this Christmas with a religious Canadian family. I think it will be fun. Hope you have a great Chistmas too.

peace,

Rain

[theja]

"Do not be afraid to be proven wrong". I like that, Rain.

I hope you had a wonderful Christmas. There are many wonderful people in Canada. You remind me of my Christmas in an obscure place in Canada --- a little town called Weldon in Saskatchewan. Some years ago.

[Rain]

yes, the people are wonderful. the folk in the country is even more kind and polite than in the city. more religious as well.

I plan to do some exploring of BC next summer.

R

[Rain]

Again, I ask you to follow up on your arguments or retract your statement.

Thank you,

Rain

[theja]

Rain, let's disagree on this one. You have your arguments and I have the statement of Aisha.

By the way, Sauda lost her turn, which was awarded to Aisha. I guess like Mao Tse-Tung Muhammad liked younger flesh to enhance his quality of life.
Poor Sauda.