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[CastleStormer]

Are we all truly equal?

Quran 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

"And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" -Quran 48:13

If some are destined for destruction, and some for eternal reward with a lot of virgins, how can that be considered "ALL ARE EQUAL"? Even Christians aren't deceptive enough to preach that all are equal. There are two kingdoms on this earth. Some are chosen or foreordained to continue on, and some will be destroyed. That is NOT equal.

And what about the Hadith? It should have been written by Tolkein.

Are all peaceful? Check this out: ""Whoever changes his religion, kill him." [Bukhari, Hakim, Ibn Abi Shaybah, Tabarani]

Last point to consider: If Jews are a part of Islam, and Christians are a part of Islam, and all men are completely equal....then exactly WHO are the "infidels" who must be destroyed by jihad? The Q'ran talks much about destroying those who are not true followers. So does the Christian Bible. The only difference is that real Christians don't try to be deceptive about what they believe. What it is, is what it is. A pig wrapped in beautiful shiny paper is still a pig, regardless of the spin you try to put on it.

This wil be my last post on this matter. Rain will never change from Islam, and I will never change from Christianity. This will turn into a long debate on Mohammed vs Jesus, and other "same ol same ol" stuff. Want to believe in Mohammed...go ahead. Want to believe that Jesus is THE ONLY WAY, welcome to truth. We can agree to disagree Rain. Just be honest with the people here.

XXXOOO,
CS

PS: Since we are all one religion, maybe Jews should be allowed to go into the dome of the rock and worship Jehovah. lol! Watch the peace that will happen then...

[Rain]

I appreciate your approach to the discussion, Castle. First, let me say that I've once read a very touching piece your wrote about your son and I do respect you for your faith. I respect spiritual people for I am one myself.

When I argue about Islam, you have to understand that I argue only for myself and what I follow, and never attribute myself to any political or otherwise groups. I generally dislike patriotism because I think human beings are equal. The only association I've come to make in recent years is that I am Chechen, and that is only due to the very serious situation that people there go through.

Now, to make my first point, - I do not consider Hadith part of Allah's message. It is true that many so-called Muslims consider it divine, especially in Saudi Arabia and Wahhabis-affiliated countries, but I consider it nothing but tradition and fabrication, written by people such as Bukhari and the like. I find these books to be very unnerving in that they often contradict the Quran. ( and each other, often ).

Such literature appeared hundreds of years after Muhammad was gone, and cannot by any means be considered divine. Only Quran is divine.

And secondly, I do not consider Muhammad to be a divine person. I think he was a normal human being, one that all of us can be, who was given one mission, - to bring the Revelation to humanity. ( Quran ) Concentrating on Muhammad would be contradictory to the very point of him being the prophet. I devote myself purely to the Quran alone.

Hadith to me is like Jewish Talmud, and Christian Gospels, both were literature written/interpreted by human beings, and thus cannot be blessed by God's perfection.

Now, you might accuse me of trying to avoid many issues with Muslims/Hadith, but I've already stated that I always make that separation and I never consider myself part of any movement. If you'd only seen how many more debates I have with so-called Muslims than with people of other religions.

Im true to my belief, and thats the Quran. I accept all the scriptures that came before, and all the prophets. By Golly, I enjoy being inside a Church or a Sinagoguue when I have a chance to.

Nevertheless, I still make a distinction to follow exclusively Quran, a choice I made a few years back after a thorough journey into spiritual matters, for at that time I was about to discard religion as a tradition and not a way of life. I had doubts, and I digged deep, I read, I learnt, and I came out with an assurance that Islam is the only perfect religion in the world today. ( again, IMO ).

I will never convert to anything else. And I wont spend my life trying to convert others, that is everyone's personal choice to make. Through casaulity or fate, the Creator will guide each human being into the revelation if that human being truly wants it.

Now, can you give me some time before I address your point? I have to get going, but will reply today evening.

peace,


R

[circassian]

Originally posted by Voyager13b

Kumukh77,

And all this time, I thought that the greatest (and worst?) attribute of humanity is that at some level, all humans are individual and distinct. Go figure....



Voyager

so it is kinda semi official that all humans are not equal according to you ? is that what you are saying ?

can you please explain to me the betterment criteria by rating users here .

who is better then who for example ?

is voltaire more valuable then c-force for example ?

is tovsky less equal to jwel in any way shape or form ?

please explain to me , why you think all humans are not equal.



thnx

[voltaire-]

This thread is over a year old. Did something make you want to revive it?


V

[Voyager13b]

Originally posted by circassian

so it is kinda semi official that all humans are not equal according to you ? is that what you are saying ?

can you please explain to me the betterment criteria by rating users here .

who is better then who for example ?

is voltaire more valuable then c-force for example ?

is tovsky less equal to jwel in any way shape or form ?

please explain to me , why you think all humans are not equal.



thnx

Wow, you must be a lonely guy to search that far back in order to find reasonable posts to argue about. Read what you have questioned, and you might find an answer. All humans are no doubt created equal, but the fact that humans are granted the ability to make individual choices in life, makes it reasonable to judge individuals by their actions. I simply pointed that fact out to you, and did not suggest that I can judge the relative value of one human being over another. The entire point was that humans can make choices that other species are not capable of making, and that humans should ultimately be understood as individuals.

Do you have a problem with that? Some individuals choose to blindly align themselves with a larger group, and there is nothing wrong with noting that fact. For example, even though humans are free to understand their surroundings, and decide how they react to those surroundings, some humans (like you) choose instead to join a group, and parrot the party line, despite the potential to reason on your own. It's a pity, but it's also a fact of life. Did I do something wrong by pointing that out?

By the way, since you seem to be the one who loses sleep over the relative value of the membership here, why don't you post your personal tabulation of who should live, and who should die? I think everyone here is an individual, and I agree and disagree with each to one degree or another, but that does not translate into a rating system.

Sometimes, I enjoy what you have to say. Sometimes, I think you might be an idiot. Either way, I have no desire to "rate you", as your ability to choose your words as an individual prevent you from being fixed into one pidgeon hole or another. It's the human thing that I talked about in the year old post you brought up.

Voyager

[circassian]

[/i]


..... It's the human thing that I talked about in the year old post you brought up.

Voyager [/b]

your last sentence is full of retrospective white wash .


you say :

" It's the human thing that I talked about in the year old post you brought up.
"
Actually , when YOU posted that reply , you knew damn well that i was arguing with a crowd who were chanting kill the muslim monkey.

you post was just another underhanded blow to the principle of " everyone is equal without distinction."


You should of stood up for unfairly picked on users and ahould of speak up against the racist - religionist abuse of certain users.


instead , you choose not to.





as for the rating issue , well I DO believe all to be equal without distinction.

therefore what rating ?

Let's have those with a reservation/condition for this principle speak their mind and justify their stand or let them stay silent for ever .



ALL HUMANS ARE EQUAL WITHOUT DISTINCTION .

how can you rate a match in match box ?

you burn it , that's how .






[/b][/quote]

[Voyager13b]

Originally posted by circassian

your last sentence is full of retrospective white wash .


you say :

" It's the human thing that I talked about in the year old post you brought up.
"
Actually , when YOU posted that reply , you knew damn well that i was arguing with a crowd who were chanting kill the muslim monkey.

you post was just another underhanded blow to the principle of " everyone is equal without distinction."


You should of stood up for unfairly picked on users and ahould of speak up against the racist - religionist abuse of certain users.


instead , you choose not to.





as for the rating issue , well I DO believe all to be equal without distinction.

therefore what rating ?

Let's have those with a reservation/condition for this principle speak their mind and justify their stand or let them stay silent for ever .



ALL HUMANS ARE EQUAL WITHOUT DISTINCTION .

how can you rate a match in match box ?

you burn it , that's how .






[/b]

[/b][/quote]

You are wrong, guy. People are not like matches in a box. They might be born that way, but a multitude of factors throughout their lives, including upbringing and free understanding makes each person an individual. At some point in time, they have to be treated as such.

As I recall, those people who were engaged in verbal combat here over a year ago didn't need any special support from me. They were slinging plenty of verbal poison at their detractors in response, and seemed to be doing just fine. If you recall, I was interested in talking to both sides in an effort to better understand their positions, and was not interested in "saving" one group from the other, as mutual verbal combat seemed to be the order of the day at the time.

Was I wrong? I don't think so. No one asked for my help, yet people from both sides were happy to engage in civil discussion with me about the conflict.

What is it with you anyway? You seem to be a fairly bright guy, yet you also seem to be allergic to building bridges of any sort. All you do is point fingers, and complain. Is that how you interact with people you meet in person?

Voyager