islam and democracy...the impossible union.

[Rain]

Hey DV, -

Sharia : The law system inspired by the Koran, the Sunna, older Arabic law systems, parallel traditions, and work of Muslim scholars over the two first centuries of Islam.
Sharia is often referred to as Islamic law, but this is wrong, as only a small part is irrefutably based upon the core Islamic text, the Koran. A correct definition would either be "Islam-inspired", "Islam-derived" or "the law system of Muslims".

http://i-cias.com/e.o/sharia.htm

This poses a slippery slope to non-Arab Muslims ( like myself ), who have have their own culture and traditions. Question is, where does Islam end and Arabicism begin?

Im skeptical of Sharia law, mainly because it is subjective. Arabs today primarily dominate Islamic theology, even though they are a minority of Muslims ( 13% I believe ). The concept of it is interesting, taking religious doctrine and putting into a law, but it always depends on an interpretation, and you know how dangerous that can be. Or, has become, to say it bluntly. The fanaticism of Saudi Arabian "Islamic" law, even though presented as taken from the scripture, is based on Arab literature predominantly, and often sidetracks and contradicts the Quran.

If I havent said it enough on this forum, I will reiterate : I am opposed to current Arab interpretation of Islam ( Wahhabism ). It is not based on Quran, it is based on literature of a 17th century scholar called Al-Wahhab. It is oppressive, hateful, arrogant and most importantly, it is wrong because it contradicts the Quran. It sanctions oppression of women, it sanctions regression of science and society, it is violent and dangerous.

I can give you a small case study of how Arabs hijack and twist the Quran in order to fit their meaning. Lets take the verse which is found in the article I posted. ( This is absolutely arbitrarily, that site/verse came up on google randomly )

It says :

45:17-18 "then we gave you a Sharia in religion, follow it, and do not follow the lust of those who do not know... "

This translation is controlled by the "Islamic" clergy in Saudi Arabia. Anyone reading this verse would assume that Quran advocates following today's Sharia law, and obeying the imams.

Now lets look at an independent translation of the Quran into English, without the clergy bias.

45:18 "We then appointed you to establish the correct laws; you shall follow this, and do not follow the wishes of those who do not know."

Now this is totally different. The laws spoken here are God's laws, not clergy's laws that have been cooked up centuries after. The author makes an objective translation without naming these laws "Sharia laws", because today that has a definite meaning pointing to an institution; the author understands that Quran could not possibly refer to Sharia, as it had no existed then, and would later not even be based on Quran.

This is cultural enslavement by Arabs that they perpetrate through their version of Islam. They have alot of "Islamic" tricks up their sleeves, if I were to bring this up to an Arab imam, he would accuse me of being a mushriq, a fabricator. ( I believe thats the word ) That is, I "fabricated" or "invented" a new meaning from the institutionally accepted ones. ( regardless of its logical plausibility. ) And since Quran prohibits innovation in religion, that is creating laws that Allah did not create, and forbidding things that Allah does not forbid, they would again hijack the Quranic meaning to accuse me of being an innovator.

What they evidently do not understand is that today's Muslim clergy is exactly the mushriqs that Quran refers to. There are thousands of examples of innovations into Islam, of restrictions that arent there in the scripture. One of them, just from the top of my head, is the "Islamic" law that forbids keeping animals at home. Apparently dogs are filthy animals. Now, there is NOT A WORD about this prohibition in Quran, and yet this is widely considered an "Islamic" practice. ( Of course me and my kitten think otherwise. )

Today's hijab is equally not an Islamic practice ( though I dont mind anyone wearing it ), there IS NO Muslim way of dressing, because Islam is a religion, and it is your soul that is the real garment of your personality, as the Quran says.

I hope this helped illustrate just how corrupted the Arab clergy have become. There is a world of difference between Islam the religion, and whats today commonly known as the Muslim World.

R

No religion at al can be mixed up with any democratic state.

It can only be done when government is divided from religion, religion should have no influence on government.

And Rain, Ayman is trying to make a point, dont run around with the religion bashing flag, that's cowpoo.

He makes a pretty damned good point.

[Rain]

or is that hostility? I think that's hostility, Durak. Its like me asking someone to prove they aint a monkey and then pointing fingers when they tell me to buzz off.

I never avoid a good discussion. But I know when not to waste my time too.

R

[aymanfawzy1970]

good evening dear friend...first i want to tell mr. rain i didn't talk about the arab world but about the wider muslim diaspora ...do i need to remind you that there are 57 nations in the organisation of the islamic conference (oic) not one is yet a democracy !
i said befor that democracy based on one fundamental principle: the equality...the greec word isos is used in more than 200 compound nouns including isoteos(equality)-
isologia(equal or free speech) and isonomia( equal treatment) and again we find no equevalent in any of the muslim languages the words we have such as barabari in persian and sawiyah in arabic mean juxtaposition and separation do we have a word for politics? the word siassah in arabic means politics but this word siassah now used as a synonym for politics but initially meant whipping stray camels into the line.
nor is there mention to such words as government and state in koran.
early muslims translated numerous ancient greek texts but never those related to the political matters .
i said befor that the idea of equality is unacceptable to islam for the non-muslems cnan't equal the muslims...am i wrong mr. rain?
all over the islamic history itis impossible to find even one khalifa (caliph) can act as a legislator i will give you another example...there is consultation in islam : wa shawerhum fil amr) it means in english( and consult them in matters) but here consultation is about specifics only and never about the overall design of society .
read the islamic history and see what had happened to the christian egyptians when the army off amro ben-elass attack egypt to join it to the islamic impire in the time of the 2nd khalifa omar be elkhattab.
befor i end my podt i want to send a fast words to mr. rain and mr.durak ...first to mr.rain i want you to know i always believe that we all shall die it doesnot matter where and when but the case is why and how ..so you are a muslim and sure you know who is ottoman ben affan or aly ben abi-taleb or ben aby sefian...they was all the first kahlifas in the islamic impire sure after abou bakr and omar but do you know why and how they all have died? ...!!!and you know that they are all were the nearest persons from mohamed the prophet of muslims and he was consulting them in matters isn't it?
so if this was the manners of the early muslims the nearest muslims from mohamed then what we may expect from the grand sons?and do you insest thatIslam can be communist, socialist, democratic as you have said befor
then prove it please and you have a 57 islamic nations the most of them are not wahhabians!!
and to mr. durak ((Ayman is trying to make a point, dont run around with the religion bashing flag, that's cowpoo.))
and i want you know why i want to talk about islam and democracy that's because the islamic salafists ( the main community of the terrorists ) are know have all the power in the islamic governments all ovcer the islamic world and all of you are not far from them fire even if you were on your beds!
and america want to fighting the terrorism by making a democracy nations from a countries they are in fact far from the basic principles of democracy but without the american way i think the wrold will never stop suffers from those terrorists so befor we make changes in a people copletly defferent from us we should first understand them traditions and then find the right way to make them living in democracy.
do you need more ? thank nyou mr.duraka nd sure thank you mr. rain .
thank you dear and god bless you all and keep you always in safe and keep you always far from the islamic weapons...amin.

[Edited by aymanfawzy1970 on 7th June 2004 at 20:34]

[_DigitaLVampirE_]

What do you think of this website's defination of the
Sha'ria?

Actually many of the modern Islamic theologians and
philosophers are non-Arabic by descent/birth.
Even so, they remain original to Muhammad's teachings and revere Arabic as the revered language of God to the Mussalman. Afterall, the original Qu'ran was written in Arabic - the language which Mohammad preached in.

I know Wahhabism is an offshoot of Sunni Islam but wasn't Al-Wahhab also a reformer?
Sufism on the other hand is a mystical Islamic belief system.
In a Wahhabi's eyes the Sufi Muslim for example, would be seen as a "Kafir",
because Wahhabism has no tolerance for mysticism or Islamic "art".

I can understand the differences between the two, but surely there must be an authority for proper interpretation of the Qu'ran, hence why immams are necessary in certain Islamic sects. Authority must be necessary as any Tom, Dick or Harry could interpret the Qu'ran as he/she pleases and the results can be quite devastating at times, as evident in Bin Laden's view of Islam. Although a proclaimed Wahhabi, even the Wahhabi's think of him as a radical.
Many Wahhabists believe he has brought shame upon their sect.
What are your views though?

Here are a couple of websites that have opposing views that might be relevant to the discussions between you and Ayman:

ISLAM AND DEMOCRACY: THE IMPOSSIBLE UNION

Can Islam and Democracy Coexist?

[Rain]

DV, you are missing one important component in all of this, - God. We dont need mosques or churches to be close to God, we dont need imams or priests when we are literate and can read the scripture ourselves. Imams must serve the people, ( if they choose to do so, by explaining scripture to the illeterate, etc ) not the other way round.

Osama was created not because he sat idly and tried to interpret Quran by himself ( I wish he did that ), but because he grew up in an atmosphere where imams already had the whole ideology setup for him.

Middle East ( and its sects ) might as well be incompatible with democracy one way or another, but Islam isnt just compatible to say the least, it is far beyond "democracy" or any other such human concept.

Look at Bush, this your democracy. Its a joke. One thing more sad than an oppressed nation is an unopressed nation without any sense of direction or purpose.

Islam is beyond being a "Religion" in the way that West sees everything thats God-related, it is a collossal source of enlightenment and progress for humanity that provides harmony to man, achieves true equality and happiness to its true adherents in a progressive way of life where God does not contradict science as is the case with other religions. Its like an awesome weapon that you might never know how to use, or one that would create harmony in society - something no man-made system will ever be able to achieve, communism fell and capitalism is creaking like an old granma, constantly requiring to bomb/rob someone to sustain itself as it further devides society into poor and rich and sells its morals and traditions out. Where does it end ? We are screwing up our planet, our morals, our money is spent on satisfying the most basic animal desires like food, sex and power ( or illusion of ). We have people on one end of the planet dying of starvation, and on the opposite end dying of obesity.

Any attempts by man to create a "rational" and "democratic" system will always result in corruption, be it religion or state or anything else in between. This is especially true for religion, at least I can always tolerate corrupt government, as they dont pretend to be holy.

We dont need imams/priests/rabbies, we dont need the system to tell us how to think. We just need to switch off the TV, get that lazy arse off the net and just start thinking. Something people have stopped doing a long time ago.

DV : "Authority must be necessary as any Tom, Dick or Harry could interpret the Qu'ran as he/she pleases "

That is the one fundamental answer to religion, the one absolute solution, the one right path about religion we always miss. That is how it was intended, by God, to be read and thought out by Tom, Dick and Harry individually...

This is it. This is everything.

This is what religion is. It is freedom.

Authority in religion is absurd, it is counter-God, it is like a boy scout club where you gang up and you feel courageous enough to control God. ( His word, that is ). No matter how many people one's religious organization has, no matter how many institutionalized rituals one performs, we still die alone in our beds at the end of our life, each and every one of us. Religion is solely between man and God.

We die without ever having gotten to know our God. Thats what "Authority" in religion does. It sets itself up as the ultimate God, it claims to know and speak for Him/Her/It, what an arrogant deed. Or are we all messengers and prophets?

Absurd.

R

[Edited by _DigitaLVampirE_ on 8th June 2004 at 22:33]

[Rain]

The moment you join any religious organization, you give up your freedom to believe...

R