islam and democracy...the impossible union.

[aymanfawzy1970]

mr.rain in the holly book jesus told us about the liers prophets and he told us whe could know them from them believers ....i told you on my last post about the causes of ottoman and ali and many more other leaders and they was all the nearest persons to mohamed the muslim prophet do you think who killed them and why?
and i asked you to look at the 57 muslims nations could you find only one democartic nation?
if you insest to believe that islam is a democratic religion then i hope to tell you that you are eating ice cream mixed with poisons .
excuse me sir but may be i will leave you for a while
but please remember this words....you will never find any kind of democracy better than this in the western countries including america and if you don't like the american democracy this is your own matters not mine but i believe that god will always bless america because there is no other country undersstand the new enemy of this world better than america and she is the only country who owns the power to make the victory ...and finaly don't blame america for its policy outside the states they have all the right to follow the benefits of them people not the the others such as oil and many other things they should secure it for the next generations of believers not the next generations of terrorests .
befor i go i recommend you to read carefully the islamic history wich full of wars and blood and violence and please as much as you can about the christian history and see the defference with you eyes not mine or any other person's eyes.and then back agin to quran and read sorat al tawbah very carefully and you will understand the meaning of the equevalent and the democracy in islam if you couldn't be convenced yet then i will be sure that it is the god who closed you mind and be sure that i couldn't do anything else because i alweays believe that internet couldnever be a pway of promotion for anything in a relation with god unless the knowledge and .befor i go i will tell a new information it is for you....the most of my words about the democracy and islam was for a muslim writer not for a christian with 2 faces
there is no christian with 2 faces mr rain.
if i was a very hard mewmber on this board then i could leave you allone on your talks and go.
finally have all of mt best wishes for you and all of the members and god bless you all.

and be sure that very soon you will see

Originally posted by Rain
or is that hostility? I think that's hostility, Durak. Its like me asking someone to prove they aint a monkey and then pointing fingers when they tell me to buzz off.

I never avoid a good discussion. But I know when not to waste my time too.

R

i dont know what point you are trying to put out there, but its just plain and simple a truth that in islamic laws there is no place for democratic ground. How will u impose the basic right in a democracy then:

voting right for everyone, without any discrimination on sex, race or any of those things, citizenship is enough.

Look around you at islamic states with islamic laws, the more strict ones have not much space for democracy, and when they do have a bit of democracy then islamic leaders will rule over who may enter the vote or not, look at Iran for instance.

Has nothing to do with making , as u usually do , a side remark that sways the whole discussion away, ayman made a good point that is worth discussing and that has nothing to do with religion bashing, but to see if one thing is compatible with the other.

[_DigitaLVampirE_]

After discussing your views with a Muslim friend of mine and reading from various Islamic sources, i disagree when you try to "do away" the traditions of the mosques or the imams. Even secular Muslims acknowledge the need
for mosques and imams to properly interpret the Qu'ran.
God works through the mosque and the imams so that basic teachings of the Qu'ran are properly adhered to and rightly interpreted. Even Sufi scholars such as Imam Nawawi had a following and many flocked from thousands of miles away just to hear him speak. They admired him for his intellect to properly interpret the Qu'ran as well as the Hadith.
The concepts of "I AM MOSQUE", "I AM MY OWN ULAMA", "I DO NOT NEED ANYONE TO TELL ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE.", "I DO NOT NEED TO GO TO MOSQUE, I CAN GO TO MOSQUE BY STEPPING OUT INTO MY BACKYARD, AS GOD IS EVERYWHERE."
leads to error.

Muhammad himself was considered an Ulama to the people of his time. After his death, there was even a dispute over his followers as who should take over his role to lead the Moslems.

Actually, Osama did try to interpret the Qu'ran by himself, otherwise how would you explain the thousands of other Wahhabists who disagreed with his view on Islam?
Osama is actually a Salafi - a more rigid form of Wahhabism.
Non-Salafis, i.e., the vast majority of Muslims, disagree with Osama's judgement. The non-Salafis counter with another statement of the Prophet in which he says: "Expel the Jews of Hijaz from the peninsula of the Arabs." The reference to the Jews is to be read as a synecdoche (for non-Muslims: Hijaz is a region of Arabia and this second Prophetic statement narrows the more general first statement. In other words, non-Muslims are permitted to reside in Arabia, but not in Hijaz, the region of the twin sanctuaries of Makkah and Medina.) For goodness sakes, he even targeted at the Saudi's for not complying to his view on Islam and rejecting his call for jihad.

And if you disagree with authority given to Ulama's,
then why do you also reject the teachings of the Hadith?
Like i said, even the Sufi imam Nawawi based most of his teachings from the Hadith.

There have already been too many Muslim "reformers".
The problem with Islam today is that it seems constantly to give rise to sects violently hostile to secular institutions, to reason, and to cultured sentiment.
As a religion it exhibits no institutional structure that might impose some discipline on the chaotic and lawless spiritual impulses that it generates from private interpretation.

If all that is the problem, then i believe it is absurd to hold that the solution is for Islam to find its very own "Martin Luther". It has already had its "Luther", not to mention its "Calvin" and its "Henry VIII", all rolled into one...his name was Muhammad (Afterall, he did claim to be the "seal of the prophets" and that the Qu'ran was the final and "complete" revelation from God).
I strongly believe what Islam really needs is a universal Ulama.

[Armelius]

Rain, could you enlighten me on how islam or any religion for that matter can enlighten one's intellect?

This thread has a false premiss. Something that is impossible has to be proven to be impossible and that in itself might be an impossibility.

Since no mention of a governmental state it would be untrue because religion does work in democratic ways. A fairly recent example would be Iran with the deposing of it's shah.

The question should be where does one derive the right to rule over "lesser" men. Is he appointed by the majority and take control over those who refuse his legitimacy. Or will the leader emerge and automatically take control by devine right or superiour motives?

It would be easy to show that people are born in their predicament with those that were before him presenting all the obstacals. The first thing a man should do on becoming a man is to throw away all the chains that bind him to his unnatural belief.

Amazingly religion means bound by belief...from religi to bind or to be bound.

[Booger]

Originally posted by aymanfawzy1970
i believe that muslims can build a successful societies provided they treat islam as a matter of personal and private belief not as a political ideology they want to convence the other to accept it and who is the other? the non-believers in the islamic ideology.

I Agree.

[KGB-CCCP]

Well they could do that but for some reasons I haven't seen any muslim countries that have made that choice. What a coinsidence. Dam I wish I could spell

[Booger]

Originally posted by KGB-CCCP
Well they could do that but for some reasons I haven't seen any muslim countries that have made that choice.

I wonder why that is. Here in the States, you can worship anyone you want. Without fear of reprisal. Damndest thing...