god and the nonbelievers

[Traper]

Ever heart of Darwin's "Evolution of species"?

Yes, and about Big Bang Theory also. So tell me what was the origin of the first atom, which started all this history?
Don't answer with the same question about God. God is spiritual, while I ask about matery.
And another point - experience. People who really believe in God (not just going to the church, because the should do it) have met Him. And this is a grace, with no our merit. Maybe exept giving Him a chance.

I remember the story about tweens in womb. One ask another: "Do you really believe in mother? How can you know that there is anything out there? None has come back from there so far..."
It's the same with life after life.

Rikbe, you deny God's love because of some diseasters. You should remember that every religion tells about 2 powers: good and bad. The relationship between them differs, but both of them can infuence the world's situations. God's love is shown in people who rescued from tsunami and in those who organised help for them.

Buddha didn't call himself "the only God", but he talked about divine consciousness. The aim of meditation is to become one with it and the whole world. He taught that although there is no one God, every person has a divine part in itself and must reveal it.

[rikbe]

Originally posted by Traper
Yes, and about Big Bang Theory also. So tell me what was the origin of the first atom, which started all this history?
Don't answer with the same question about God. God is spiritual, while I ask about matery.

According your theory God created matter. In your opinion, God is only spiritual. So, who created the spirit?

And another point - experience. People who really believe in God (not just going to the church, because the should do it) have met Him. And this is a grace, with no our merit. Maybe exept giving Him a chance.

I have a lifelong experience with no meeting of God. Probably you will conclude I am not worthy. I conclude there is not.

I remember the story about tweens in womb. One ask another: "Do you really believe in mother? How can you know that there is anything out there? None has come back from there so far..."
It's the same with life after life.

The twins can tell the world that there is something after birth...

Rikbe, you deny God's love because of some diseasters. You should remember that every religion tells about 2 powers: good and bad. The relationship between them differs, but both of them can infuence the world's situations. God's love is shown in people who rescued from tsunami and in those who organised help for them.

I deny God's love because there is no God. Not because of some disasters, I had none in my life.
There are no other powers than wich men invent. There is no good or bad. Just human beings trying to survive.
Where is God's love in the people that died in the Tsunami?

Buddha didn't call himself "the only God", but he talked about divine consciousness. The aim of meditation is to become one with it and the whole world. He taught that although there is no one God, every person has a divine part in itself and must reveal it.

True, why you don't do it? It works very well without a god.

[Traper]

Originally posted by rikbe
I have a lifelong experience with no meeting of God. Probably you will conclude I am not worthy. I conclude there is not.

I wrote that this is a GRACE, which means that it has nothing to do with your worth. Probably you've never gave Him the chance

The twins can tell the world that there is something after birth...
I don't understand. Tell whom? Other no-born children?

[rikbe]

[quote]Originally posted by Traper

I wrote that this is a GRACE, which means that it has nothing to do with your worth. Probably you've never gave Him the chance

I think he had all the chance of the world. I was raised a Catholic and started to doubt when I was 16. It took me 10 years to realise I did not believe anymore.

I don't understand. Tell whom? Other no-born children?

Tell you and me.

[carisma]

dear rikbe .... when i asked who did create the nature itself ? you answered ( nature ) then what is the physical contents of nature? everything in this world has a start point unless one thing ...it's god himself the master of this world look at the life of jesus as a historical tory has amny more witnesses of his miracles even from the men they refused him ...one of his miracle was with the wind ...one of the elements of the nature ...specificly on this situation ...who was the master ? and who was the slave ? jesus was the master and the wind and in fact all of the nature is the slave...unles if you believe that jesus was a legend as many more persons refuse to see the light and they insest to live in the darkness.
and you asked who made the creator? if there is someone made the creator then he is not the real and master creator because he will be a creature for another creatore but it should be only one original and master creator and he shouldn't be a creature or he didn't deserve our worship.
and you should know that god is a spirit and the nature has no control at all up on the spirit .
you said : There is no good or bad. Just human beings trying to survive.
i agree with you...yes we are all trying to survive but how? we all will die sooner or later.
then why we are living in this world? just for nothing? what's the value of your life if you will die sooner or later?
the death is one of the main facts of this world ...we all has a sole a spirit what will happened to this spirit after the death? without the resurrecion there will be no value for your life ...the believers know the real value of jesus resurrection becuase without it there was no meaning for our life or even the christianity itself.
and finaly i ask you how could you deny there is a good and bad in this world? why you don't eat the solide waste? and you eat the grill meat? why you don't drink the blood but you drink the red wine? because the solide waste and the blood is a bad things for you but do you believe that there is another creature see it i mean the solide waste qand the blood is a good thing? and they see the red wine and the grill meat is a bad things? do you agree to kill an innocent man? or rape an innocent girl ? or to kill a baby? do you like lie? ...believe me i doubt...then why? because it's all a bad things.
do you love your wife? do you love your children? and your country? do you prefer the trouth? offcourse yes? or what? then why? because rekbi is a good man but what if you loved all of the bad things? you will be a bad rekbi
be sur5e that behind all of the good things in this universe a one person and behind all of the bad things another person and your manners ...your tradition and habits accords to the person you follow.
the good or the bad person...you may deny there is a god but be sure that every cell in your body know this god and every cell in your body interesting in the day it meets this god unless your mind .
there is a darkness corner inside your mind and the bad person loves this darkness area .
you said you have born in a catholic family but it doesn't matter catholic or orthodox or even enavgilical...without meeting the god and without leave him lighting your soul your hart and your mind you are a loser .
i ask you for only one thing dear...go and touch the god but first you need to find the right way to the god and when you touch him you will see the amount of the darkness in your life and sure you will lose the darknes forever.
the choice is yours now .

[rikbe]

dear rikbe .... when I asked who did create the nature itself ? you answered ( nature ) then what is the physical contents of nature? everything in this world has a start point unless one thing

My dear carisma I think that, although we use the same words, we don't talk of the same.
The word "nature" has many meanings. When I talk of nature in this kind of discussions, I mean "the forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world: the laws of nature."

I do not talk of this world but about the Universe. This world (planet) as we know it has a beginning and an end and so everything on it - as we know it - has a beginning and an end. The Universe - as we know it - has probably also a beginning and an end. But I believe that the matter/energy that composes it, is eternal. This is a belief that is not founded on any scientific fact nor observation, and therefore my belief can be wrong. Maybe tomorrow someone will discover something that proves that energy/matter comes from nothing, or is another form of time, or whatever.
As I believe that the energy/matter is eternal, I conclude there is no need for a creator. No spiritual force, thus no heaven or hell, no god or devil. No after-life. Our soul/spirit or whatever you want to call it will disappear from the moment our brains will stop functioning when we will die.

As I have no facts to prove my belief, just as you have no facts to prove your belief, they are as much trustworthy as any belief: thus NOT.
The difference between our beliefs is that my belief doesn't affect my life. I do not pray to a "Holy Universe" or "Holy Time/Matter". I feel no need to convert other people to "my belief". I do not kill or torture people because they disagree with me. Something some religious people have the bad habit to do. I even don't go from door to door on Sunday mornings to preach "my holy word". I prefer to sleep till noon.

...it's god himself the master of this world look at the life of jesus as a historical tory has amny more witnesses of his miracles even from the men they refused him ...one of his miracle was with the wind ...one of the elements of the nature ...specificly on this situation ...who was the master ? and who was the slave ? jesus was the master and the wind and in fact all of the nature is the slave...unles if you believe that jesus was a legend as many more persons refuse to see the light and they insest to live in the darkness.
and you asked who made the creator? if there is someone made the creator then he is not the real and master creator because he will be a creature for another creatore but it should be only one original and master creator and he shouldn't be a creature or he didn't deserve our worship.
and you should know that god is a spirit and the nature has no control at all up on the spirit .
you said : There is no good or bad. Just human beings trying to survive.
i agree with you...yes we are all trying to survive but how? we all will die sooner or later.
then why we are living in this world? just for nothing? what's the value of your life if you will die sooner or later?

We are just a link between our ancestors and our descendents. A tiny link in the chain of evolution. Nothing more.
I don't know if my life has any value or not. It has for me and for my children and their children and so on.
Even if I had no children, my life has still the value I give it.

the death is one of the main facts of this world ...we all has a sole a spirit what will happened to this spirit after the death? without the resurrecion there will be no value for your life ...the believers know the real value of jesus resurrection becuase without it there was no meaning for our life or even the christianity itself.

As I said, spirit disappears at death.

and finaly i ask you how could you deny there is a good and bad in this world?

What we call good and bad are defined by moralities and/or laws which are agreements between humans. They have only a meaning in a human society. Good and bad is different in different cultures and times. In some countries it is good to gang rape women as punishment. In our culture this is bad. In the middle-ages in the Christian world, it was good to burn heretics. Now it is very bad.

why you don't eat the solide waste? and you eat the grill meat? why you don't drink the blood but you drink the red wine? because the solide waste and the blood is a bad things for you but do you believe that there is another creature see it i mean the solide waste qand the blood is a good thing? and they see the red wine and the grill meat is a bad things? do you agree to kill an innocent man? or rape an innocent girl ? or to kill a baby? do you like lie? ...believe me i doubt...then why? because it's all a bad things.

I am not sure blood is bad for me it only tastes bad. And from time to time, I eat raw meat.
Sometimes innocent men and babies are killed for a good reason. Then it is a good thing.
I don't like to lie but sometimes it's necessary. If a lie can save my life, it is a good thing.

do you love your wife? do you love your children? and your country? do you prefer the trouth? offcourse yes? or what? then why? because rekbi is a good man but what if you loved all of the bad things? you will be a bad rekbi

My wife and children? Sometimes I do, sometimes I hate them.
My country? I don't love or hate it. I surely would not want to die for it.
I prefer the truth because lies are complicated, not because of "good or bad".

I guess you will call me a sometimes good and sometimes bad rikbe.

be sur5e that behind all of the good things in this universe a one person and behind all of the bad things another person and your manners ...your tradition and habits accords to the person you follow.

One god of good, one of bad? That makes two.

the good or the bad person...you may deny there is a god but be sure that every cell in your body know this god and every cell in your body interesting in the day it meets this god unless your mind .

If my cells could speak I could ask them. But they can't, so I will never know.

there is a darkness corner inside your mind and the bad person loves this darkness area .

I don't think I have any dark corner in my mind. My mind is mostly very clear to me.

you said you have born in a catholic family but it doesn't matter catholic or orthodox or even enavgilical...without meeting the god and without leave him lighting your soul your hart and your mind you are a loser .
i ask you for only one thing dear...go and touch the god but first you need to find the right way to the god and when you touch him you will see the amount of the darkness in your life and sure you will lose the darknes forever.
the choice is yours now .

I made my choice a long time ago and I still believe it is the right choice. Not that I would not like to believe in an afterlife, but I can not believe in something just because I would like it to be so. That would be lying to myself and lying to myself is verey bad.

[brian66]

thought provoking postings from all..interesting points..i would like to add my own small contribution here..PAUL shows us clearly in 2nd thessalonians,that we are made up of 3 seperate parts i.e SPIRIT ..SOUL..and BODY..we are told that at death ..the SPIRIT returns to GOD who gave it..and the BODY returns to the earth ,as everyone knows..BUT where does the SOUL go to ?? ..well that depends on the life that each individual lives while in the body..if the person lived a life that was pleasing to GOD then the soul ascends upwards at death..BUT if the person lived an evil life on earth then at death the soul descends downward to the place of lost souls...each act we do ,and each thought we think either quickens or slows down our SOUL vibration ..how many of us here know the heavy feeling that comes upon us when we have done something really evil or bad that we were ashamed of ..and the feeling of lightness and joy we get when we feel we have done something that pleased GOD or helped another human being and made them well or happy..you feel like you are floating and that you could fly ..the lightness of the soul..so it is very inportant what we think and what we do ..because our souls destination depends on our thoughts and actions...BRIAN