The devil

[LovelyLenore]

Originally posted by ANDY-J2
Reincarnation is a common belief in many cultures and was one of the doctrines of the early christian church.

I am interested to know where that information was found. As I read the Old and New Testaments, I see no references to reincarnation. In fact I see the exact opposite. We are here once and our choice will be made then and there. I see nothing about coming back and trying to reach enlightenment. Maybe I missed something. I would like to know your source. Thanks.

[ANDY-J2]

The bible is of course open to interpretation.Christ's statement that'before Abraham I am' could be viewed as an assertion that he has lived in a previous incarnation.Why would Christ make an explicit reference about reincarnation-he spoke in parables precisely so that only those who possessed spiritual insight could understand his true message in their hearts.The early christian church had no conception of old and new testaments.Certain biblical texts were regarded as suspect by some patriarchs and accepted by others.However in the centuries after Christ reincarnation was one of the doctrines promoted by the christian church-in spite of the fact that there is no explicit reference to it in any scriptures.It may well be that we live only once and are subjected to the judgement of a vengeful God but myself and a substantial part of the human race believe otherwise.I see within the bible countless references by Christ that seem to me to refer to the workings of Karma.For example'you shall reap what you sow' which also incidentally appears in Bhuddism,and 'he who has shall be given more while he who has nothing,even the little he has shall be taken from him'.This is PRECISELY how Karma operates.


"Many people in Jesus' time believed in reincarnation, including many Jewish sects such as the Essenes. Jesus openly taught reincarnation, even though much of it is edited out of the works that have come to be accepted as His teachings today. Many of Jesus' teachings make more sense, or have a deeper meaning when understood in the context of reincarnation. This also holds true for the teachings throughout the Bible as a whole"
-Women's status and reincarnation in the early christian church;Jeannie Weyrick.

[Edited by ANDY-J2 on 15th August 2001 at 19:43]

[justoleme]

Im sure Lovely lenore may want to add to this,and she can.I can see you have done a critical study of this matter,which i found interesting to read. I am no authority on this subject but i have some thoughts on it myself.thinking of it this way..IF there is no god.All this is of no value to us.if there is a god as in the bible that Lenore and i read,,IF he is,Then why would he allow so many millions of bibles to be published with inaccurate information inside?(refering to King James bible here.)Then,,if it is subject to interpetation so much as to compare it to those other know leaders of beliefs such as Buhddism..there is nothing i can find in the KJB to refer to this..Jesus mentioned those such as Abraham but not Bhudda.and he was often critical of the Pharisees and scribes..often saying they kept the word of god to themselves and kept the common person ignorant gods secrets..There must be a parrallel to our constitution and bill of rights in the USA today..You can read the original,,But learn it has been corrupted by men who say it is subject to interpetation..leaveing us far less freedom today than the written word intended in the original document.today there are preachers who interpet the bible very loosely to get folks with money into the church and not offend them,Or political special interest groups.When i can pick up a bible myself and see this is wrong..the Bible, (KJB)..says basicly,,That you are to accept those who sin into churches,,(Which is the mission of the church,,) But not approve of the sins they would like to have accepted.<>.But the man from England had a way with words that i admire,,that applies here..Shakespeare on degeneracy>>>----> Oh what a falling off was there..<--<<

[ANDY-J2]

Justoleme,
Consider the implications of the following biblical quotation."The disciples asked Jesus:Who did sin,this man or his parents that he was born blind?"(John 9.v2-3).Clearly the implication is that the man has lived in a previous life and that his blindness is a consequence of previous sins.If the doctrine of reincarnation were indeed alien to the teachings of Christ why did he not rebuke his disciples for stating their belief in reincarnation?
As regards the reasons why God has allowed false religious doctrines to be accepted.I believe that all human souls have been granted absolute freedom to believe in and practice whatever religion they wish.Human suffering however is a result of people seeing themselves as seperate and distinct from God when in reality they are one with God and everything else in the entire universe.Many religious doctrines prevent human beings from attaining a true knowledge of the divine.Our life on earth is a learning process and when we learn to accept our oneness with God and the universe we will no longer suffer.Christ stated'behold,the kingdom of God is within you'(Luke 17.v21).Thus we are masters of our own spiritual destiny.It is for each individual to look within themselves and seek the path of true enlightenment.'Salvation' is an internal state of God like perfection and religion can only act as a guide.The reasons why the early christian church suppressed much of Christ's teachings are complex but primarily it was to maintain the secular power and wealth of the clerical authorities.

[justoleme]

i enjoy reading your thinking on these matters.As for words of Jesus ,here is something I noticed .St Luke CHAP 11,Ver.23 <>He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.<> it is hard for me to understand that you being from Scotland would not find the King James Bible the one you would choose to be most believeable..there is a story on the song called Amazing grace..That a guy from Scotland was working on a slave ship long ago then he come to believe in Christ then quit the slave trade and wrote that song. in my view this was a very honorable thing for a Scottish guy to do..did not christianity come to your islands with the Romans? But about the devil..Ive know of people who worship him..Very evil folks.but for them,,Evil is good..

[ANDY-J2]

Justoleme,
I am not anti-christian.I have the highest regard for the teachings of Christ.I am however anti-clerical and very much against the vast edifice of often meaningless dogma which has been constructed around the teachings of Christ. Throughout history clerical authorities have sought to manipulate and control people's lives for their own profit by using the threat of divine judgement and eternal damnation.To me this is a message of doom and despair.I have sought answers outwith conventional religions and the vast majority of evidence seems to support the idea of reincarnation.It is my belief that Jesus taught about reincarnation and Karma and that much of his teaching on the subject was deliberately removed from the bible for no other reason than it would have fundamentally challenged the ability of the clerical authorities to control their flock by means of their message of eternal damnation.

[justoleme]

andy,,I can understand the points you are makeing here..But you must read the history of things like Martin Luther who defied the power of the Roman church to start protestant movements..Protest is the first word there.Many of the things you are pointing out.then the average person could not get a bible as we know it today,,Because of the power of Kings.WHY would they not want the lower classes reading a bible?they wanted government to interpet the words and hold power for themselves.because those who are dedicated to gods word in the KJB for example,Know there is a higher power than kings and world leaders who have mighty armies and weapons.today..In America.There are those in high office who want to get that power over the citizen of the USA.by distroying belief in god..Discrediting christians,with help from so called religious authorities.The liberals along with communist and socialist have gained a lot of ground in recent years..But they can not celebrate a victory yet,They try to distroy belief in public schools and with mass communicatons.you can read about this in communist leaders books.We have a crime and drug wave by the youth of America..and liberals say they have answers to this..I say they helped it along in the sixties..and now want to fix it their way,no I dont trust them.They claim their god is science and nature,,Charity work,,But use tax dolllars of working folks ,Not as much as their own.YES,,There is a devil..he is well hidden,,he can decieve the very elect.so it says in the good book..And i know who he is most happy to be associated with.you can turn on TV in the USA and see murder and violence for five hours then the newsman blames guns for the violence.But i do like your thoughts on being a good person,and admire you for being open minded on your thinking.