I have to say something...

[Kremlin]

(This message was posted in the topis "Socialism ¿The final answer?". I put it like a topic, ´cause I think it worths to be readen, and criticized. I´m not a totalitary communist, even if I attack I capitalism. I know all the horrors than Russia did, and it was something so terrible than can make you hate Russia, and communists. Maybe some of my points of view are wrong, maybe ´cause I´m not russian nor american, and I may percept some things wrong. I have never been in that countries! But I think is a good post. It is very closely related to the topic where I originally posted it, and to other post than I did put in the same topic. Well, I hope you enjoy it´s reading and you compart some points of view. But if you don´t, make me know what is wrong.)
I have something to say.
First of all, I think that a TOTALLY capitalist system or a TOTALLY communist system is one of the most mounstrous things in history. A totally communism system is Stalin. A totally capitalist system is Pinochet or Hitler.
Otherwise, I have to say than I´m in dissacord with B. Ungaro. He´s a nacionalist. He only thinks that one is the devil and the others are God. It´s something stupid. Russia didn´t cause the 1st or 2nd World Wars. The Whole Europe was guilty. In the first, there was the imperialist interest. In the seccond, there were the nacionalism of Germans, in combination with an absurd peace, humilliant to ANY country, that was imposed by the allies (Versalles peace trade) , and an horrible racism, . In Vietnam, I have to say that it was as injust as in Afganistan. USA did impose a dictatory state, and they were coward refusing the elections than Ho Chin Mihn would have probably won. That´s why of Viet Cong. But the yankees were humillianted by a country than years after had won to France, winning their independence. Similar to Vietnam, Afganistan was an ideologic humilliation to Russia. ¿Imperialism in a "Socialist state"?. I have to say than Lenin and Trotsky were in dissacord with the things than were about to happen in revolutionary Russia. They said than the "proletarian dictature" were about to transform in a burgueoise state. That was what happened. Real comminism must be democratic, cause "State" is the people. You can´t silence the masses opinion, and sacrifice your own people ´cause of a corrupt party. But you can´t say socialism couldn´t be democratic, cause capitalism wasn´t democratic in the past. And they evolutioned and now they are a good system (in their own countries). ¿But how long they will work? ¿Is that hedonism possible in all countries? It isn´t. The United States of America were found not only in democracy and freedom. They was also a genocide. Terrible like the Stalin massive killings. The indians, only oppositors to the "freedom" and "progress" ideas, were eliminated. Now this act is not seen like a genocide. It´s seen like an action movie, or something that happened long ago, and it wasn´t their fault. Something terrible. Now they are happy (even than there are more than 30 millions of poor in USA), but ¿How long? Their system is killing the planet. Just imagine if all of us where rich and capitalist. Millions of resources spend every day. Soon, world would be destroyed, or, tecnically talking, drown. It is´nt possible. Capitalism is, in a form (I´m not saying anything extremely communist), a sinonym of genocide, ´cause only strong survives. Failures of Soviet Union are extremely known. We see them every day in all kind of books or publications. And it´s good to know. But capitalism is reverenced like a God, like something perfect than would lead us to freedom. ¿What is the real value of THEIR freedom?, ¿And the Third World, the eternal poor? They try to convince us (I´m from Mexico) than it´s our fault. Our fault than they stole us Texas and now it´s not a crime, ´cause it was made by our favorite criminal: USA. Or saying than they are our friends, and, when we try to sell the petrol in the price we like, they threaten us with the disaster, and (if we would have done it) with WAR? We are not their friends, or their allyes. We are their slaves. Servants. They gave us the freedom THEY like. They say the world is a wonderful place, full of other bad people, than, not according their occidental "moral", are the criminals, the evil, but, in their blindness, like in the communist´s blindness, they not see than they are the criminals. Repulsive. Two systems. Two monsters. One opress itself. Other is good for them, but bad for the others. And now they are the same. USA stills enslave the third world countries. Russia is still poor, and concentration camps, like we saw it in Chechnye, still exist. Don´t wait than Bush (or Al Gore) or Putin are the Messias. Two corrupt monsters. They sell their ideals to the better purchasers. One makes an absurd war, saying he will dialogue with terrorist when they kill them all. The most stupid thing I have seen. If we aren´t rich, at least we will win the wars. Is there any difference with the Soviet Union? Other(s), say they love Latin America and all the races, when in NY a black men tries to get out his wallet of his pocket, and is killed by police men thinking than it was a gun. And they weren´t condemned! They love Elian ´cause it gives them popularity. They kill the people that tries to get to the other side by the Río Bravo. If Elian could been one of them, he would sure have been killed. They didn´t judge Pinochet. USA didn´t participate in Pinochet judge, but they can make War in Kosovo. Patetic.
But I can trust russians. The americans are fine with all the injustices. While they are rich, all is OK. But Russia hasn´t known the richness. They had power, but what is that without happines? They are not rich. And that make them intelligent. They think, they fight for a new system, not totally capitalist, not totally communist. They have known all of them and they are tired. The richness make americans like idiots. They know all about computers but they can´t understand their own acts. They don´t think. All the science, all the knowdledge, all the richness. What is that, if you cannot think your own actions, if you only see for your prosperity and think the others are poor ´cause of their own acts? Can they see the way of their destruction? Russia thinks, Russia fight, ´cause they have not win. America has won. They are happy with the things just like now. Russia is a tortured soul. A country that has power, and also is tired of this situation. At least, that is what I see of Russia, compared to USA. I´m not saying all russians or all americans are fighters or idiots. They are lot of worty people in America, and also lots of idiots in Russia (like the communist dictators). But what I said is the soul of their countries. Their essence. I doubt that Russia will be rich if they follow the path of american capitalism. And if they are rich, they will become idiots, they will be not the libertators, they will be the opresors. Just like Soviet Union, that became, instead of the country of the masses, the opressors of Europe. I understand some of the angry of B. Ungaro to Russia. And if he´s not an anti-russian, I think USSR did something terrible, just like americans. I like russia, but not their dirigents, I like their people. But if they not act, I will put my hope in another country. Socialism, the final answer, was not a forum of discussing the lengt of americans vacations. It doesn´t makes happiness. If I´m free and happy, I don´t matter working the rest of my life. But if I don´t like things like they are now, I won´t stand like that, even if I´m happy and I don´t work. USA and USSR, two words, synonim of tirany and opression. USSR is the past, like I had said. USA is present. But USA is not good. I don´t mean a violence war. If USSR fell down by their own weight, literallytalking, "without a shot" (some people died, but they were minimum compared to the big lye than they demolished, the USSR), the tirany of USA must fall witouth a shot, too. I not mean to kill americans, or capitalist, or comunist. I mean to change them. To change an oppresive capitalism an a no free and lyier communism. The evil twins, born in Murder and Lyes. How? Well, that is what we will see. Maybe is, like I have say, a free market economy with a social concience, or it is the socialist economy with freedom and democracy? May the son of the american eagle and the russian bear be the peace bird? That is what we will see. Work, Equalty, Fraternity. Three things, so magnanimous, than fell aslep long time ago. The sleeping giant. Passion, Courage, Freedom. The eagle than is encaged, the wall than has be build in our soul. Let´s set free the eagle in ourselves! Let´s destroy the walls of our own minds! Let´s wake up the giant of our Will...

[EvilCommunistFrog]

Here's a little info for you...
First off...Hitler and Pinochet weren't/aren't capitalistic...they were/are dictators, as far as you can possibly be from a capitalist. Secondly, Communisim in it's pure form is a perfect form of government. Everyone is equal and no one is oppressed. Unfortunately, because of human nature PURE communisim is impossible; people work harder than others and want more money than the idiots who slack off and get paid the same. But, your ideas on capitalisim in it's pure form are correct, for capitalisim is the majority not the single man. What you get is not always the best, but is the opion of your average redneck moron.
I have no more to say... Good day


"Destruction, fear, and decay. The worst is death...and death...will have his day"

[Kremlin]

Hitler and Pinochet were capitalist dictators. Pinochet killed a democratic electly socialist president (Salvador Allende), and he killed people with socialist ideas. Hitler was capitalist ´cause he said that one was superior and the other must be slaves (where´s the equalty of socialism?)He also killed communist and judes. He invaded USSR against the german sovietic pact of no agression. Dictatorship is an state than is in every kind of system. USSR was a communist dictatorship. The absolutism was a capitalist kind of dictatoship ruled by royal statements.
(Were´s your slogan from? A cereal box?)
"Russia must fatally roll. Must, by her irresistible inertia, CRUSH, crush whatever stood on her way"
Henry Adams, 1904 (refering to the future conflict between two nations: USA intensivity, and Russian inertia, Autobiography)

[EvilCommunistFrog]

No... just because he killed socialists doesn't mean he's capitalist... and seriously... Hitler was a monster, he wasn't capitalist, capitalisim has NOTHING to do with a superior race or religion etc. I suggest you study up on your politics buddy...

[Kremlin]

Yes, he was. He made a prosperitu for some private Chile industries. But also he didn´t help poor ones. He also was a favorite to the ultra-conservator Margaret Thatcher and he betrayed Argentina (almost a brother country to Chile)in Falkland´s war. All monsters have a political system. Hitler made a "free maket", but xenophobe system. He gave many jobs to desemployed germans, but also kept in poverty the judish. And the point to this discussion is that a pure capitalism or socialist system is bad. Think of Louis XIV. He was a total capitalist. Also I have to say that the neoliberalism benefits empresarians but not all people (In my country and also in the rest of Latin America, that is what happened). And the point of this discussion is that in their pure form both systems are bad. "The perfect communism" is impossible also ´cause many of the revolutionary people end up being tyrans. Comunism hasn´t been in it´s pure form in any country. Communism was the voice of poor ones, and also the greatest expression of people. That´s why communism should have been democratic, ´cause it was the voice of the mayority. But people like Stalin used it to make a tiranic party in justification of Marx ideas. Lenin also adevertised it in 1920, when he said Russia was transforming in a burgueois state and not a proletarian one. So, as we can see, communism hasn´t been in any country in the whole history. Also Marx said communism was made to have been in rich and insustrial countries and then extend to the poor ones. That was the easiest way to do a global revolution. But communism was made in poor countries, and that made communism was seen as a very hard way to get the equal justice, and that dissacredit it. Comunism is a social state never seen in history. I was wrong to say a TOTAL comunism OR TOTAL capitalism. I refered to a TOTALITARY communism or TOTALITARY capitalism.

[EvilCommunistFrog]

We are arguing the same point... I said PURE commuinsim is impossible due to human nature IE revolutinaries becoming tyrants.

[Nonson]

Kremlin, the dichotomies that you seem to be trying to establish are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps, if the lines of demarcation were more clearly delineated the argument would become clearer. Just a thought.