NO

[chiukov]

China is oppressing the people in Tibet, Taiwan, and Xinkiang. All minorites in China are suffering under the cruel communist dictatorship. Russia should not ally with China and should stand up for herself

[Andrey_V_Saiko]

The problems of national minorities are not because of comunists. Rilationship between nations in China is the only buissiness of the people of China & Chiniss government. Today in most of the foreign affairs questions, China is the only allie of Russia!!!

Andrey V. Saiko

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[Dr_Woland]

Hi Chiukov

You forgot in your list: Ethnic Mongolians. "Inner Mongolia" is the part of Mongolia lost to Chinese control, 25% of Mongolians live there. Mongolians there have no rights to use their own language, or to celebrate their own culture. In their history books, Chinghis-Khan was been "removed" from history, he "did not exist". They are "China's forgotten minority".

Andrey: are you prepared to accept ANY country as an ally, simply because you need allies? Will you accept North Korea? Libya? Iraq? Burma (="Myanmar")?

Just to remind you, please have a look at a map? Taiwan = independent country, NOT CHINA. Tibet = former independent country, invaded and conquered illegally by China. You cannot simply say - because you fear criticism of Russia's right to administer Chechnya etc - these are "Chinese internal problems". The two situations are not analogous!

Do you really think Russia can benefit from being the ally of a dictatorship with the worst human rights record in the world?

By the way.... in your happy marriage to China, you should be careful where your wife is, in her spare time? There are rumours that she's spending a lot of time with Bill Clinton - they were seen having lunch together. Bill said he could arrange for her to join some of his clubs. And you know his reputation with other women!! :-))

Dr W.

Greetings Dr. Woland,
I regret to say that your anti communist bias
makes you come up with some conclusions that are not supported by facts nor international
law. This is not to say that communism is good or was good or could be good. Back to your conclusions. Particularly baseless is your statement that Taiwan is an independent
country and not China. Checking history you will find that Taiwan was occupied by a bunch of bandits who were chased off the mainland by the the people under the leadership of Mao. While he was communist, he was the leader of the people who rejected
the bandits. These bandits stole, plundered,
raped, burned on their way out of the country. To be able to understand such events
you have to understand that for some people
communism is a big improvement over what they
had before.(Again, this is not an endorsment of communism, just facts.) This may shock you
but there are places today where communism is
an attractive option for the natives. The
Philippines are just one example. Sad commentary on the conditions there now. Back to the bandits. When they occupied Tawain, by
treaty it was under Japanese control.
I believe it was in 1952, the Japanese by treaty gave the island back to China who was and is the rightful owner. If we let social outcast (aka: bandits) occupy and claim parts of a sovereign nation at the drop of a hat we will never see the end of such foolishness. This brings me to Tawain today.
The people of Tawain deserve a special status
just like the people of Hong Kong did. China is flexible on this. They will never compromise on their sovereignty over Tawain.
Burma and other places are different and let us talk about them another time.
Good Luck

[Dr_Woland]

Good evening (as it is here), Mr Ungaro!

I am not especially "anti-communist" in principle - in theory, communism has many attractive facets. However, I am against the repression of basic human rights, whether that is done in the name of Lenin, Mao, Sukharto, or any one of a number of religious movements. Since I have a sneaking regard for communist principles, I am particularly annoyed by regimes who torture people, murder people, lock them up for decades, declare them insane etc... in the name of "Communism". Equally, very little that happened in the USSR after approximately 1922 had much to do with "Communism" either, despite the fact they claimed this nice-sounding name for their atrocities and outrages.

How do you distinguish between the bunch of bandits under Chiang-Kai-Shek, who founded Taiwan, and the bunch of bandits who remained in charge on the mainland? Mao cheerfully watched his people starve to death in famines which were kept secret from the West. And the beatings, the killings? 10,000 Buddhist Monks killed in Inner Mongolia alone, according to unofficial figures.

I actually agree with you that the founding of Taiwan (complete with the Japanese treaty) has a very shakey basis in history, and in legality! Nevertheless, it is a country which the United Nations recognises as a soveriegn independent state. There are several other countries whose claims to independence are not more legitimate, and it's only because it was so long ago, that we accept them as such. For example, the Welsh would have very good cause to demand that the occupation by England was illegal - however, do we go back to the C13th to correct things retrospectively? Then there's the whole question of Palestine, which is much more recent.

Even the UN has some principles, and there are countries which don't meet its criteria - for example, Northern Cyprus, which the UN doesn't recognise. But whether we LIKE it or not, Taiwan is - except on maps printed in China - a different country to the PRC, and therefore the PRC's relations which Taiwan are, legitimately, an issue for the world community to discuss.

I don't disagree with you about the advantages of Communism, you may be surprised to hear? :-) I've been on both sides of the ex-USSR/Turkey border, right up to the barbed wire, on both sides (two years separated the visits). In Soviet Armenia, they were harvesting potatoes with a tractor, and people lived in apartments with electricity and indoor toilets. In Turkey, women were harvesting vegetables by hand on their knees, and they lived in homes without electricity, toilets outside. Distance between these people's fields - about 2 miles.

In addition, I should say, the Kurds who lived in Diyarbakir in Turkey had no right to education in Kurdish, there were no newspapers in Kurdish. Across the border, the Soviet Kurds had full recognition of their language, had radio-stations and newspapers in Kurdish, and Kurdish schools. Of course, it's an interesting question whether being able to read Communist propoganda freely in your own language, is better than not having to listen to Turkish propoganda in someone else's language??? :-))

Frankly, considering American readiness to forgive ANYTHING the PRC does in return for trade deals (Tienanmen, theft of nuclear secrets, political prisoners, genetic experiments on humans, Tibet, nuclear testings... "oh, come to lunch!!") I don't personally think that the USA will act (which means NATO won't act - after Kosovo we saw that NATO is simply a tool of USA, with no independent decision-making) if PRC attacks Taiwan. Already the PRC has been making "beach-landing excercises" on its own beaches, directly opposite Taiwan. It's clear there is already an invasion-strategy ready - if it becomes needed. So there is direct intimidation.

And in the face of this intimidation, Taiwan's leaders see Clinton and Allbright sitting down to a Chicken Dinner with the PRC leadership. Why spoil dessert with some little island's problems? And my own country, UK, is just as hypocritical, of course. PRC Premier visits - British Police are ordered onto the streets, with instructions to close them to pedestrians, so that honorable Chinese gentlemen will not be offended by the sight of placards about Tibet, illegal nuclear testing, etc etc.

Always a pleasure to talk with you! :-)

Dr W.

Greetings Dr.Woland,
Correct me if I am wrong, Taiwan is not a member of the United Nations, not even as an observer. Although your analogy is valid as it relates to other peoples. The sad facts
are that, faith, religion, church were around long before there was communism. The failure of those institutions to protect and guide the people against opression, opened the door, often through social revolutions, for communism. The un-holy alliance between
the oligarch and the church is well documented in history. The oligarch kept the people poor and opressed and the church kept
them humble.
Good Luck.

[This message has been edited by B.Ungaro (edited 26 June 2000).]

[Dr_Woland]

I have to say, that although I had imagined Taiwan would be a UN member, I'm not at all certain of that for sure, and therefore I am prepared to take your word for it!

I certainly agree, the Church must bear a lot of responsibility for teaching people that their place at the bottom of the system was the one the Almighty chose specially for them - but not too worry, their reward would be in heaven, right? :-/

"The Difference Between Communism and Capitalism. In capitalism, one man cynically exploits the other. But in communism, their situations are reversed"

:-)

Dr W.

(edited because I keep trying to use the "UBB Code" which supposedly runs this board, but it doesn't work....)


[This message has been edited by Dr_Woland (edited 26 June 2000).]