russia and china like brother

[Voyager13b]

Originally posted by Soviet_Spetsnaz
If you think Russia and the U.S are friends, then you're living in a dream world. Wich the Russian veto and Russian anti-Iraq-war debate showed aswell.

Putin and Bush might have common goals against terrorism. But Putin is against the U.S globalization. The Falcons in the U.S government (wich Bush is a part of) have own plans with the world, and Russia doesn't plays a role in it.

Russia is a major power - still, and the USA don't take other major powers into their "organization" --scuring them the only seat in the "super-power-train".

Spetsnaz of a dead government,

With all due respect, I think that you might be living in a dream world. At the very least, it seems that you are trying to maintain your vision of the old Soviet power structure. The Soviet Union is dead. Russia has risen from the ashes of communism, and is growing strong once again.

Although Russia joined the pacifist Germans and the self loving frogs in standing against the routing of Saddam, there was never any official worry that Russia would use it's veto. Igor Ivanov rattled his sabre several times in order to appease the old cold warriors in Russia, but the official line was clear. Russia would not veto the plan.

As to the US not making room for other powerful nations in the world club, you are way off course. Russia will regain world power through it's economy and sheer size. The US is neither a threat to that growth, nor an impediment. Russian and US interests in the world are far more similar than your cold war mentality will allow you to see, and at the present time, Russia has far more to gain in the economic realm by working with the US than by becoming a puppet of China. Competition and mutual security are winning goals for Russia and the US. Political comfort brings investment. Investment expands both economies, and both countries reap the benefits.

Marriage to China is a convenient arrangement for those who think that Russia is still the CCCP and that the CCCP and the USA are enemies by the decree of God, but it is a marriage that would end in a bloody divorce. The only things Russia has in common with China are a border that divides natural resources and political power, and a desire to become more influential than the US.

Each side talks partnership, yet each desires the top position in the relationship. Without close ties to the US for the near future, China would end up on top, and Russia would end up playing second fiddle. Even worse, Russia might lose is eastern frontier before the dust settled.

I think that Russia has a great future, and that a Russian - US economic alliance will offer more stability to the world than any of the alternative plans. By the way, if you are Russian, and spent time in the Red Army, why would you insult your countrymen by choosing to be identified as a soldier of a dead government, rather than as a soldier of the living Motherland of Russia? All politics aside, I don't get it. Even if I liked the dead vision of communism, I would have to be enthusiastic about prior service to my nation, and have pride in the fact that I am now free to rally for change. What's up with the Soviet thing?

Voyager

[Kalinin]

Originally posted by Voyager13b

Spetsnaz of a dead government,

With all due respect, I think that you might be living in a dream world. At the very least, it seems that you are trying to maintain your vision of the old Soviet power structure. The Soviet Union is dead. Russia has risen from the ashes of communism, and is growing strong once again.

Although Russia joined the pacifist Germans and the self loving frogs in standing against the routing of Saddam, there was never any official worry that Russia would use it's veto. Igor Ivanov rattled his sabre several times in order to appease the old cold warriors in Russia, but the official line was clear. Russia would not veto the plan.

As to the US not making room for other powerful nations in the world club, you are way off course. Russia will regain world power through it's economy and sheer size. The US is neither a threat to that growth, nor an impediment. Russian and US interests in the world are far more similar than your cold war mentality will allow you to see, and at the present time, Russia has far more to gain in the economic realm by working with the US than by becoming a puppet of China. Competition and mutual security are winning goals for Russia and the US. Political comfort brings investment. Investment expands both economies, and both countries reap the benefits.

Marriage to China is a convenient arrangement for those who think that Russia is still the CCCP and that the CCCP and the USA are enemies by the decree of God, but it is a marriage that would end in a bloody divorce. The only things Russia has in common with China are a border that divides natural resources and political power, and a desire to become more influential than the US.

Each side talks partnership, yet each desires the top position in the relationship. Without close ties to the US for the near future, China would end up on top, and Russia would end up playing second fiddle. Even worse, Russia might lose is eastern frontier before the dust settled.

I think that Russia has a great future, and that a Russian - US economic alliance will offer more stability to the world than any of the alternative plans. By the way, if you are Russian, and spent time in the Red Army, why would you insult your countrymen by choosing to be identified as a soldier of a dead government, rather than as a soldier of the living Motherland of Russia? All politics aside, I don't get it. Even if I liked the dead vision of communism, I would have to be enthusiastic about prior service to my nation, and have pride in the fact that I am now free to rally for change. What's up with the Soviet thing?

Voyager

I can't resist, I have too many things to contest here...but I have some work to do...I'll reply ASAP

[Norsk]

Listen, Russia has nothing left to offer China, and China has nothing to offer Russia. Russia already knows how to brainwash citizens, so China cannot help them there. The United States will help Russia turn their citizens into corporate tax slaves. Russia can assist the United States government by teaching them how to subdue their population and make them more obedient. The goal here is for both countries to end up with a docile population of tax slaves. Long live the Russian-American brotherhood!

[bisserk]

i think this was posted during the great american aggression of iraq

[Kalinin]

As to the US not making room for other powerful nations in the world club, you are way off course.

This is where you are wrong Voyager. US is the strongest nation today, and it intends to stay that way. US will never allow another nation to become a super power because its simply not beneficial to the US and is against US interests. The Bush doctrine specifically states the US will tolerate no military competition ("dissuade future military competition"- The National Security Strategy of the United States of America)- why else does it spend $400 billion a year to mantain a military and waste money on Star Wars? The US wants to make sure no one will ever be stronger than it- and you must have at least 2 superpowers to neutralize the global power struggle or global destabilization will occur.

Marriage to China is a convenient arrangement for those who think that Russia is still the CCCP and that the CCCP and the USA are enemies by the decree of God

Both China and the US are a threat, China is currently perhaps a slightly bigger threat- China was always an enemy of the CCCP.

why would you insult your countrymen by choosing to be identified as a soldier of a dead government, rather than as a soldier of the living Motherland of Russia

Because what was then is better than what is now.

have pride in the fact that I am now free to rally for change.

The Russian army is in total disarray, there is little chance for change in an army where thousands desert and thousands are killed. The current Russian army is only a vague symbol of its former greatness.

[Voyager13b]

Originally posted by Kalinin

This is where you are wrong Voyager. US is the strongest nation today, and it intends to stay that way. US will never allow another nation to become a super power because its simply not beneficial to the US and is against US interests. The Bush doctrine specifically states the US will tolerate no military competition ("dissuade future military competition"- The National Security Strategy of the United States of America)- why else does it spend $400 billion a year to mantain a military and waste money on Star Wars? The US wants to make sure no one will ever be stronger than it- and you must have at least 2 superpowers to neutralize the global power struggle or global destabilization will occur.

Both China and the US are a threat, China is currently perhaps a slightly bigger threat- China was always an enemy of the CCCP.

Because what was then is better than what is now.

The Russian army is in total disarray, there is little chance for change in an army where thousands desert and thousands are killed. The current Russian army is only a vague symbol of its former greatness.

Kalinin,

Your words help to clarify my point. Your view expects eternal conflict with the US. I'm talking about economic competition, and partnership in attaining mutual goals for both populations. Military competition in the sense that you use the phrase brings to mind one country against the other. That isn't my idea of cooperation.

Military competition in terms of Russian products competing with American products for use within a greater alliance (such as NATO) on the other hand, is good for all concerned. George Bush or any future President cannot and will not be able to stiffle the ability of Russia to take it's place at center stage as a superpower in the new structure of the world as Russia continues to build a free society from the cold remains of communism. The idea of Russia and the US having close ties and friendly competition is just plain good for the world. Even a happy communist like yourself can see the potential benefit to smaller economies of the world if the "big kids" on the block are able to work and play well with each other (at least I hope so).


Your math is OK, but the application of the formula is all wrong. Two countries that stand against the principles of the United States might very well keep it from having it's way in the world, but it will also keep all three countries from spending much money on non military projects, and by design, would prevent their populations from embracing the concept of free society. Russia would love to spend as much as the US on defense right now. It just can't afford it yet. It will never be able to afford it if it gives up on building a free market economy, and decides to make "whatever the US does, we are against it" it's official motto.

The Star Wars thing is a red herring. You only see it as a way to insulate America from attack brought about by it's "bad" policies. BS. Just like the metallic cartidge, it is a needed step in the evolution of weapons to protect the country from attack by the least significant player in the world who might be using 20 year old technology to drop a missile on Washington just because it can. As it stands, I'll bet that Russia benefits from the effort to develop a missile defense system, and I'd also bet that if Soviet Russia were able to afford it, they would be working on it 24/7 and wouldn't share a single detail with the US.

Don't trust China. At least, not right now.

The Russian army will be better than ever as the economy improves, and as the old military leadership assumes room temp. The US army had it's tough times in the 70's, and most of the old guard thought that reform would never work, but the tune has changed during the last 20 years. It's all about the economy, Kalinin. The best intentions mean nothing if you don't produce enough cash to finance them.

Voyager

[Kalinin]

George Bush or any future President cannot and will not be able to stiffle the ability of Russia to take it's place at center stage as a superpower in the new structure of the world as Russia continues to build a free society from the cold remains of communism.

Maybe, maybe not, but the US clearly states it wants to remain #1 and will not allow any more super powers- whether or not it fail in its goal is another question...

Russia would love to spend as much as the US on defense right now. It just can't afford it yet. It will never be able to afford it if it gives up on building a free market economy

But that's also something to consider- Britain, France, Spain, Germany, the entire EU spend much, much less than the US on its military, they are reasonably developed countries- why can't they spend $400 billion? Because the US controls the world economy, the US has nothing to back its billions except good will and the support of other nations...

I'd also bet that if Soviet Russia were able to afford it, they would be working on it 24/7 and wouldn't share a single detail with the US.

My point exactly! BOTH the US and Russia would be working on this system and thus would balance each other, but now the US may be the only one to develop it, thus, theoretically, it can nuke any other nation without fear of retaliation. Remember the Soviet Satana missile and how the US barred its development (MIRV) via the START II treaty? Why? Because, if you know its design, its impervious to destruction by any anti-missile defense system- even Star Wars couldn't stop it. Launch ten of them- you ultimately have 100 warheads hitting the target- nothing could protect against that.

Don't trust China. At least, not right now.

Never trust China.

The Russian army will be better than ever as the economy improves, and as the old military leadership assumes room temp.

If only...but the economy must get better before the country does