Russian Observers?

[oca]

Dr_Wodland:

What are you sources of information in the Italian incident?

May I suggest the Internet site for Military Law matters?; It has not only American Military legal cases, but world wide military pending/current legal briefs and information.

Failing that, there is nothing I can add to update your information database.

[Wendist]

To Dr_Woland and Oca

Regarding the cable car incident I would like to show my support for Dr_Woland. As far as I know the legal process that followed this unfortunate incident has been handled by the US in such a way that it has created a considerable amount of distrust in Europe towards both NATO and the US.

This is how I see it.

On Feb. 3 1998 a USMC-pilot, Capt. Richard Ashby, flew his aircraft so low that it accidentaly cut a cable carrying a cable-car with the result that 20 people lost their lives.

When italian authorities demanded that Capt. Ashby be handed over to italian police to face a court in Italy this was rejected by the US and instead Capt. Ashby was transferred back to the US.

On March 4 1999 Capt. Ashby was found not guilty of any wrong doing by a court-martial in the US.

On May 10 1999 in a second court-martial Capt. Ashby is found guilty of preventing justice. He is sentenced to six months in prison and given a dishonorable dishcarge.

What Capt. Ashby had done was this. Immediately after returning from his fatal flight Capt. Ashby had destroyed important technical evidence, a videotape in his aircraft, thus making it impossible for anyone to find out exactly what happened during the flight.

A man that knows he is innocent would hardly destroy evidence that could free him, on the other hand, a man that is guilty might very well try to remove evidence that could get him convicted.

These facts were known at the first court-martial and would in almost any other court have been seen as confession of guilt. But not here, instead the court-martial( bending over backwards and sunglasses on) managed to overlook the implications of Capt. Ashby´s actions and acquitted him on the more serious charge of causing the death of 20 people, giving him a mere 6 months for the minor charge of preventing justice.

It is quite possible that this was done within the letter of the law, but it was most certainly not within the spirit of the law and the public in Europe took due notice.

There is today a feeling among europeans that americans a) do not feel that they can get a fair trial in Europe and b) that a "fair" trial means that the court should show a maximum of lenience towards the american party and less towards whoever is on the opposite side.

This feeling( correct or not ) has already caused great damage in US-European relations, something which I personally regret.

It does not improve on the situation when a while later an american TV-serie called "JAG", which is exported world-wide, makes an episode based on this incident but with an ending that has been altered so that the american side appears to be sad but innocent.

Regards Thomas

[Dr_Woland]

>> May I suggest the Internet site for Military Law matters? <<

Sure, you're likely to get impartial information from that kind of source.

Or, as they say, tell that to the relatives of the victims. Are you saying the pilots are in jail, or not? Please be specific.

Yours deeply ironically

Dr W.

[Dr_Woland]

Hi Thomas

Your version of the events accords with the one I've read too. Ashby and his co-pilot are currently free men. All Italian requests for cooperation with the US authorities have been refused, concerning a trial under local law.

Furthermore, the relatives of those killed are left in the outrageous position that "no-one" was responsible for the deaths. The only crime of which Ashby and his co-pilot were found guilty, was of failing to comply with flying regulations, and of tampering with the flight-recording equipment by destroying the evidence.

What is missing in your account, however, is this. "Underflying the wire" appears to have been a test of bravado amongst Officers of the base. The wire had been underflown no less than five times in the preceding 18 months, each time by a different crew. On each and every occasion, the local authorities issued the most bitter protests to the USAF airbase about this unbelievable danger to local people, which broke not only basic safety regulations, but the USAF's own regulations on low flying. Seemingly the officers at the base took no steps to intervene.

One is left with the uneasy feeling that the officers held the lives of local citizens in far less regard than they would citizens of the USA.

Dr W.

[oca]

Messrs Wendist and Dr_Woland:

I read with avid interest your postings regarding the Italian incident. I'll promise to do an up-to-date research to find the latest in this issue. No matter what the results, I'll post them and take your scorn if it is due to me. Otherwise, I'll continue to post as always.

Oca

[Dr_Woland]

Dear Oca!

I certainly have no scorn for you - quite the opposite. My only interest is in natural justice. I certainly do not blame individuals for the actions of the governments of their native countries. However, it's worth discussing these things in public, because often people are not aware of what has been done in their name. I certainly cannot hold my head up high on account of my own country's past history in many areas.

I don't believe the relatives want vengeance. What they want is for those who did this to admit they did it, and to show some kind of remorse for the deaths they caused. Right now, the relatives are supposed to believe that "nobody" caused the incident. The US Govt has failed to express any indication of fault, or of remorse. :-(

Dr W.

[Wendist]

To Oca

I second Dr_Woland on that, this is no competition were there are winners and losers. I just want to voice my opinion and if you find any more information I would very much want to take part of it.

To Dr_Woland

The reason I did not include the facts you mention is that I quite simply did not know about them. I have no problem accepting the notion that among pilots there can often be a sort of "the right stuff" syndrom which makes them take unnecessary( and therefore unacceptable )risks. The fact that the base commander did not act upon information given to him by local authorities( if this is correct, you will have to forgive me but this is the first time I hear of it )is of course a very serious matter and I can find no excuse for it.

However the "uneasy feeling" you talk about escapes me completly, I would be very surprised if this type of "right stuff" activity does not exist in the US as well.
To put it like this, I belive that pilots( US,British or Swedish ) who behave like this simply do not think that they can fail and so they do not care about the nationality of any "possible" victims.

My problem here is that in this case US authorities had a problem accepting that an american had done something wrong and that it was up to a italian court to pass judgement on the same american.

Regards Thomas