N.A.T.O. - the American outpost in Europe

[Petri]

Inga, I was forgetting eastern europe. But my main focus was from the beginning on Northern Europe and Western Europe.

And Nonson, I do believe in the goodwill and goodlines of EU, but I also know that every country joinig it or that has joined thinks of their OWN best, and not of others.
As you said EU countries share politics, economy, laws etc.. But EU countries do Not share culture, language, religion, morale and such things. EU will never be "United states of Europe". (The likelihood is the same as Russia joining NATO)
Don´t compare history with today. Know that today is a very unique today (as always)when you thinks in terms of technology AND THE Iportance Of MEDIA!
Sure, nothing is sure however..

[Dr_Woland]

Hi Rodney

Yes, I agree, Lukashenka has used press censorship. He's also locked the USA Ambassador out of his house, cut off his electricity, and various other acts of someone "a few sandwiches short of a picnic".

France blew-up the Rainbow Warrior in a covert operation. Do we call France a dictatorship?

I am not saying that I either like or support anything Lukashenka (who has the behaviour of a demagogue, for certain) or Milosevice has actually done. The problem is, that they have a perfect RIGHT to do what they do, under their country's legislation, and under the principles of democratic elections.

The problem comes when we have to interface with such countries. Frankly, what example do we set for them, when we invite full-blown dictators like the Chinese premier to a banquet lunch, and tell him to "keep up the good work"? <sigh>

In China, there's not even an opposition press to ban :-(

Dr W.

[oca]

Dr_Wodland

This is much better that the Tatoos in Edinburgh.

Thank you for your fine analysis. Welcome back.

Oca

[Nonson]

Petri, in the US there is a saying that FEAR and GREED controls the stock markets. This is equally true of institutions, organizations, and nations. In Europe, the economic pie is not large enough for all countries to have a fair share. Politics enters and the biggest, baddest, dog gets what it wants and the rest of the mongrels can go to hell. One must also remember that the EU is not ecumenical in nature. Rub the US, China, and Japan the wrong way and the little club of well-wishers will get an over-dose of reality. _____________________________________________ The light that guides me on the path of the present is the lessons learned of the past. Are you contending that man is more principled today than in the past? I can't exactly put my finger on that reality. Are you perhaps saying that globalism, internationalism, Humanism, Transhumanism, or New World Order-ism is superior in controlling the deadly lusts, the raging greed, and the repulsive perversions than the old Western moral codes? I'm having great difficulty understanding you. Peace

[This message has been edited by Nonson (edited 26 October 2000).]

[Petri]

Fear? Greed? Let me give you a better world; competition. Is´nt that what you are talking about? There is also a word called "balace". In politics, I assume that would mean that Nothing can entirely be shifted in ones favour. Everyone will always have a piece of the cake. And remember, everything is not Just about money. I.e.; money can´t make you learn. Maybe in the future of the future, but not today. I mean, knowledge is a good thing right? Think about it, what can knowledge do? It doesn´t always win over money, but it does give an egde.
And morale, you seem to think that everyone in the world thinks the same way; greed and treachery, well, that sounds pretty much like america to me! Don´t get me wrong, I have nothing against america.
Little biology to you; A humans behavior and Thinking is controlled by born instincts AND things that you´ve seen and learned during your life.
If you assume everyone thinks the same way and acts the same way you also would assume everyone lives the same way?

It´s a different thing to learn in the past and compare the past. Could the american and russian wise men predict the world order in the fifties? Communism vs capitalism was somthing new I would say, at least in that scale.

Good you don´t understand me Nonson, maybe you will learns something. Although you seem to know more about things than me. =)

[Nonson]

Petri, in the world that I attempt to live in there is those complementary ideas referred to as CAUSE and EFFECT. Now since Fear and Greed are primal instincts we cannot exchange either the term cause or the term effect for the term "competition". The alternative meanings would quickly become unruly. Isn't it much clearer to say that "competition" is the effect produced by fear and greed (cause)? _____________________________________________ There is no such reality as a dynamic balance. It is the dynamic imbalance which keeps things chugging along. Perhaps, the concept you're looking for is: an acceptable equilibrium. _____________________________________________ Believe me! When they say its not about the money. Its damn sure about the money! _____________________________________________ "The future of the future". I do have a working knowledge of both the Marxist and Humanistic ideologies. They do not impress me. The Frankfurt School has too many things in the abstract, and an attempted application can only lead to global conflict. _____________________________________________ As for morality and the United States. It is a capitalistic system, in essence. As such,it plays to the natural instincts of man to compete for those things which satisfy his various desires. Its a form of freedom, liberty, inalienable right, etc. _____________________________________________ As for the biological bit. That is what I've been pointing out to you. LETTING PRIMAL INSTINCTS FULFILL THE NEEDS OF EACH INDIVIDUAL AS LONG AS IT IS WITHIN THE SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE FRAMEWORK OF THAT SOCIETY. Peace

[This message has been edited by Nonson (edited 27 October 2000).]

[Wendist]

Hello Inga

You expressed some concerns in your post as to what it will be like, should Estonia join NATO. I would like to answer that by saying that nothing much will probably happen.

You use the phrase "armed forces located in our towns". That is not how it works with NATO. When we talk about NATO there are two things to remember. First of all NATO is not a homogeneous block were every country has exactly the same military "profile", f.ex. there is a huge difference in the presence of foreign troops if you compare Germany or Britain with the Netherlands or Portugal.

Secondly it is up to each country to decide what there profile is going to be like. When Denmark and Norway joined NATO in 1949, this was one year after Churchill coined the phrase "iron curtain" and the cold war was very cold indeed, they demanded that no foreign forces were to be stationed there. And NATO accepted it!

I should mention that a few years later Denmark allowed the US to lease an airbase on Greenland, but still that was a fully voluntary move by the Danes.

Another "problem" with being a member of NATO is that you get involved in everything that NATO does, f.ex. their operations in the Balkans.

This is not true. Once again it is a matter for every single member state to decide what to do or not to do. A perfect example is to compare Italy and Greece during NATO´s latest air-campaign. Italy allowed NATO aircrafts to use their bases, Greece did not and there was nothing what so ever the US or NATO could do about it.

So Inga, what life will be like should Estonia join NATO is, I think, pretty much up to the estonians themselves. Of course if the estonians make to far reaching demands then perhaps NATO will not accept their application, something that if it happens will solve the problem right away.

Then why should Estonia join NATO at all? You Inga yourself mention that "Estonia and Latvia that are dying to join NATO", why is it so? As I understand it many people in all the baltic states consider joining NATO an important step to guarantee their hard-earned freedom in the future, but just like you they do not know exactly what it will be like and so they worry.

This question will be around for quite some time and will require a lot of discussion but I do not think it can be solved without people getting all the relevant information. If you have any questions or thoughts about this please do not hesitate to ask.

Regards Thomas