How majority of Russians see the role of Russia today?

[Alex_Ivanov]

Originally posted by Atolla
Do i see a monarchist here ?

No, you see usual communist, who blames "internal enemies". It's their new name for "enemies of people", I think.

[Atolla]

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by Marita
I see no reason why we should be ashamed.

Marita, what about murder commited against other nations and against Russian people themselves?

Of course we are proud of our past, I think any nation is proud of its history. Isn't your people proud of its history?

It depends...
For example,are we proud that we were the first nation to fight against Hitler? Yes.
Are we proud of the later Polish-Ukrainian mutual mini-genocide relations? No, we are ashamed of that.

We have a bit more...complicated aproach to this I think.

You accuse us but you forget that during all our history we were attacked or were waiting for an attack.

Excuse me, but Russia was an imperialistic state which enslaved other nations (Poland,Lithuania,Ukraine,Latvia,Estonia,Finland,Chechnya which I can name immediately)

It is true that it was attacked many times, but it's also true that it has enslaved other nations.

The same in the 20th century. THE ONLY PERIOD we were rather safe was the 2nd half of the 20th century - thanks to nuclear weapons we have.

Hmmm...yes, I think you were quite safe from outside threat in the 2nd half of the 20th century, but I think that taking 13th century Mongols/Tatars and Hitler apart, Russia's worst foes were internal, not external ones.

So the idea of "human rights" doesn't attract many Russians. The idea of patriotism is much more understandable. So a lot of people are discontent with reforms - our country was destroyed, the majority of people is living terribly worse. And what have we got? Human rights? It is a fetish and nothing else.

Hmmm... I think that the problem is that you actually did NOT get REAL human rights and solid democracy.
There are numerous countries with pressure on human rights (North America and EU european countries) which offer good living conditions to their citizens.
If you will look at the world, these countries are among the best places to live on this planet- I don't see why it would be different in Russia's case.

IMO the problem is that what Russia got (Yeltsin,Putin) is **** and it's not a problem with human rights or democracy, but a problem with Yeltsin and Putin.



Michael

[Marita]

Michael,
The problem is the majority of people don't think they need "real human rights and solid democracy". We don't miss them, most of our people don't understand why they should starve and suffer for this fantom.
When did we enslave Ukraine? What are you speaking about? We lived together for centuries, there is still no precise border between Russian and Ukrainian.
What else murders are you speaking about?
Unfortunately you are too much influenced by Western propaganda.

[Balamut]

Michael, how long we must repeat, that russia is no difference from other countries. Everyone commited "murders". US had their chili, vietnam, indians e.t.c. England had ireland, afrika india. And so on. Looks like you'r having pleasure in accusing Russia. That's it. Disscussion is useless.

Hmmm...yes, I think you were quite safe from outside threat in the 2nd half of the 20th century, but I think that taking 13th century Mongols/Tatars and Hitler apart, Russia's worst foes were internal, not external ones

So polish soldiers are internal enemy Together with sweeds, Napoleon and Kaiser.

Hmmm... I think that the problem is that you actually did NOT get REAL human rights and solid democracy.
There are numerous countries with pressure on human rights (North America and EU european countries) which offer good living conditions to their citizens.
If you will look at the world, these countries are among the best places to live on this planet- I don't see why it would be different in Russia's case.

IMO the problem is that what Russia got (Yeltsin,Putin) is **** and it's not a problem with human rights or democracy, but a problem with Yeltsin and Putin.

Puting Yeltsin and Putin in one line? You'r educated man, aren't you? Anyways, if we started this way (wrong way - doesn't matter now) - we must proseed. Or what, start from the beginning again? Russia will come to correct human rights you just whait. It's already miles from the situation 15 years ago.

P.S. I'm excluding other concepts - democracy and freedom - quite abstract concepts. Because total freedom is anarchy and only real democracy was in ancient greece.


[Edited by Balamut on 27th March 2005 at 16:29]

[Alex_Ivanov]

Originally posted by Balamut

Puting Yeltsin and Putin in one line? You'r educated man, aren't you? Anyways, if we started this way (wrong way - doesn't matter now) - we must proseed. Or what, start from the beginning again? Russia will come to correct human rights you just whait. It's already miles from the situation 15 years ago.


Putin has important mission - to establish new order after previous one was destroyed by Eltsin. Like Esenin wrote about Lenin's death(can be applied to Eltsin and anyone who changes politican paradigm):

Ego uzh net. A te, kto vzhive,
A te, kogo ostavil on,
Stranu v bushuyuschem razlive
Dolzhny zakovyvat' v beton.


Because total freedom is anarchy and only real democracy was in ancient greece.


And in medieval Novgorod. Real democracy is direct one. Representative democracy is a fake.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by Balamut
Michael, how long we must repeat, that russia is no difference from other countries. Everyone commited "murders". US had their chili, vietnam, indians e.t.c. England had ireland, afrika india. And so on. Looks like you'r having pleasure in accusing Russia. That's it. Disscussion is useless.

The DIFFERENCE is that Russians, unlike other nations, seem to be not ashamed,or even proud if their crimes.

It's like with Nazi Germany and Soviet Union-the two most pathological states in Europe- both murdered millions of people.

Today most of modern Germans have accepted their guilt and the extent of their error and are ashamed of the period of Nazi Germany.
Russians OTOH seem to be even proud of the pathological past and equally acceptant of the current pathological war in Chechnya.

So polish soldiers are internal enemy Together with sweeds, Napoleon and Kaiser.

No, it's just that the Polish soldiers were not the WORST foes, neither were Swedes,Napoleon's troops of Kaiser's.

In the long run, every one of these 4 forces, if victorious, could make Russia more civilised, de-toxify Russia from it's post-Mongol-occupation Asian cultural elements.

Puting Yeltsin and Putin in one line? You'r educated man, aren't you?

LOL, I did't say they were identical, just of similiar low quality,though for different reasons.

Anyways, if we started this way (wrong way - doesn't matter now) - we must proseed. Or what, start from the beginning again? Russia will come to correct human rights you just whait. It's already miles from the situation 15 years ago.

Yes, it is. But it has also made steps backward in the last few years.

P.S. I'm excluding other concepts - democracy and freedom - quite abstract concepts. Because total freedom is anarchy and only real democracy was in ancient greece.

Well, most concepts are aproximations, so is democracy and freedom in this case. One cannot really name a country with absolute freedom or with absolute lack of freedom, cause there was always something which was forbidden or not-forbidden,yet these terms are PRACTICALLY useful.

In short, there are places like USA,Canada or Europe where people have these things [even if incorrectly or not precisly] called freedom and democracy and these places are generally believed to be the the better places to live on this planet.

I get the impression that many Russians,instead of speaking ego-induced idiocy like "we are different, we do not need democracy", should look ar US,Canada, or EU countries and try to actually learn something.


Michael