How majority of Russians see the role of Russia today?

[Balamut]

No, it's just that the Polish soldiers were not the WORST foes, neither were Swedes,Napoleon's troops of Kaiser's.

In the long run, every one of these 4 forces, if victorious, could make Russia more civilised, de-toxify Russia from it's post-Mongol-occupation Asian cultural elements.

Ha-ha, visionary. Europeans never change... just the same colonists as were - bringing true civilization to the negros..

Surely we would learn something from our advanced brothers like USA, as soon as they abolish reservations.

Now if's going that way:

What crimes, what millions. Events, numbers, please, and I'll parry - are we proud of that and did we appologised.

P.S. When we'll be done with this thread, I would start campaign of acusing Poland in barbarism, don't know yet exactly what barbarism, but we'll dig something - be sure. Why? Because I'm pathological(as every russian) accuser of particular countries. Choosing the country and start the bashing.

[Lembitu]

Balamut lets start with deportation from Baltic countrys. When Russia will admit what he did and when he will apologize?
Second. Katõn mass murder of Polish military personnel. When Russia admits it and when he will apologize?
MOre ?
Deportation of 50% of Tshetshen people. When Russia will apologize?
If you need I can make this list longer.

[Alex_Ivanov]

First that comes to mind - THERE WAS apology for Katyn. But for some people it isn't enough, though they state the opposite. Chechen deportation - apology was done when they were allowed to return.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by Balamut

Ha-ha, visionary. Europeans never change... just the same colonists as were - bringing true civilization to the negros..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Great

"Peter's visits to the West impressed upon him the notion that European customs were in several respects superior to Russian traditions"


http://www.russiansabroad.com/russian_history_30.html

"Although St. Petersburg faced westward, its Westernization was by coercion, and it could not arouse the individualistic spirit that was an important element in the Western ways Peter so admired."

Peter the Great saw that Russians are backward people,he introduced western ways into Russia and he is remembered as "Great".

Unfortunately, many Russians do not remember that tale and they sneer when somebody is telling them the harsh truth.

Now if's going that way:

What crimes, what millions. Events, numbers, please, and I'll parry - are we proud of that and did we appologised.

Well,it'd be hard to say precise estimates, so for starters roughly some quickly improvised examples:
1)October Revolution - huge blood bath among Russians themselves
2)Ukrainian Great Famine
3)17.09.1939 - invasion of Poland together with Hitler, Katyn massacre and other smaller murders and repressions against Poles.
4)1940- occupation of Baltics, Balts being opressed and murdered
5)1941-1945 - notorious murder of POWs, notorious robberies and rapes on civilians made by Red Army soldiers.
6)Annexation of Baltics, enslaving of Baltics,Poland,Czechoslovakia,etc.
7)Bloodbath in Hungary
8)Invasion of Czechoslovakia
9)War in Afghanistan and the crimes against Afghan people.
10)Chechnyan wars and the continuing murder and opression of Chechen people.

BTW for me it's not so much about apologies...more about something like admitting that yes, your national history and tradition is ****ed up.

P.S. When we'll be done with this thread, I would start campaign of acusing Poland in barbarism, don't know yet exactly what barbarism, but we'll dig something - be sure. Why? Because I'm pathological(as every russian) accuser of particular countries. Choosing the country and start the bashing.

Listen, if there was something done by Poles you really did't like then write about it,just please stick to the facts.



Michael

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov
First that comes to mind - THERE WAS apology for Katyn.

Could you tell me when was the apology made and by whom?

BTW in the last months IPN (Polish govermental body for researching and prosecuting crimes against Polish citizens)met with denial of access to documents about Katyn from Kremlin's side.
In other words, Polish goverment was told "we will not reveal the full truth about Katyn".

But for some people it isn't enough, though they state the opposite. Chechen deportation - apology was done when they were allowed to return.

Might I add that right now their land is occupied again and the Chechens are being murdered and tortured?

Both in case of Katyn and in case of Chechnya, one can see from one side how the Russian goverment is still the inheritor of pathological legacies of Stalin, from the other,it's often possible to observe how morally and culturally deformed many Russians are, how they tolerate and justify/rationalise these things.


Michael

[Lembitu]

And Baltic countrys? No apologize heard yet.
And as i understand you take it as apologize if people can go back to their own land?

[Marita]

All you write about cannot even be compared with Western crimes against us.
Yeltsin has really apologized for Katyn, so we are ashamed of Yeltsin.
The Germans attacked us in 1941, so our reply was adequate. Chechens helped them during the occupation - so we had to punish everybody who helped the invaders. And that is just.
We had to defend ourselves, but the others came to conquer us.
That's the difference.