How majority of Russians see the role of Russia today?

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by Marita
All you write about cannot even be compared with Western crimes against us.

And what were the Western crimes against us?

The only Western nation which was really cruel toward you was Nazi Germany during WWII and that was your former ally from 1939-1941 which you helped to breed yourself.

Yeltsin has really apologized for Katyn, so we are ashamed of Yeltsin.

I don't recall if Yeltsin apologised for Katyn... can't recall, I think he laid flowers at the grave of the victims, but did't actually openly directly apologise.
(if I'm wrong, somebody please correct me)

The scary thing however is that you are one of those morally and culturally deformed Russians who justify/rationalise things like Katyn massacre.

Why are you ashamed of Yeltsin because he has [indirectly?] apologised for Katyn?

The Germans attacked us in 1941, so our reply was adequate.

Maybe it was justified taking in account German crimes against you,but was murdering POWs and raping women necessary?

Also, Red Army soldiers were stealing from civilian population left and right, I personally know they did rob *Polish* civilian population in Warsaw area.

Chechens helped them during the occupation - so we had to punish everybody who helped the invaders.

??? During that time, Chechnya was already occupied and enslaved by you. The Chechens only helped Germans because they wanted freedom,which you took away from them.

And that is just.

No, you are morally and psychologically deformed and your judgement is deficient.

We had to defend ourselves, but the others came to conquer us.
That's the difference.

I think we have gone through that before and I explained the error in that stance, but it looks like I need to explain that again:

The "We had to defend ourselves, but the others came to conquer us." is just an act of propaganda.
If you'd actually see into history, you'll see that in most cases, it was Russia that was the agressor and it was Russia which was enslaving other nations.

Perfect example: Chechens.

They were first invaded and enslaved by Russia around 17-18th century.
Then,when Nazis came (<-your own ex-allies BTW), Chechens cooperated with them in order to obtain freedom, being enslaved by you for over 100 years.
Then you write
"Chechens helped them during the occupation - so we had to punish everybody who helped the invaders"
- this is the way you think- your mind operates in a deficient way,taking everything out of context.
It's not the Russians/Soviets who had right to "punish" Chechens, it's the Chechens who had full moral rights to fight for freedom against their opressors.



Michael

[Balamut]

[/quote]Could you tell me when was the apology made and by whom?
[quote]
Pardon me Michael, but that's quite.. well, bad! You start such serious disscussion and, yet, don't know so important things related to our disput. Shame on you, because you'r a pole - you should know that. Gorbachev made an official excuse for Katyn in 1989. I already explained that to one savage. Shish , this drive me nuts.
For all done Under stalin - all deportations and deaths - there was XX party conference (who don't know what's that - as me)which can not be understood anyhow, but as apology.

So WE ARE NOT PROUD OF THAT, MICHAEL.
and we apologised.

Point by point answers you'll get several hours later.

P.S.
>>Listen, if there was something done by Poles you really did't like then write about it,just please stick to the facts.

Don't like it? I will write, don't you worry.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by Balamut

Could you tell me when was the apology made and by whom?

Pardon me Michael, but that's quite.. well, bad! You start such serious disscussion and, yet, don't know so important things related to our disput. Shame on you, because you'r a pole - you should know that. Gorbachev made an official excuse for Katyn in 1989.

Excuse me, but as far as I know, Gorbachev did NOT apologise, though he did a different notable thing- he was the first to ADMIT that Katyn massacre was indeed work of Soviet Union-before that, it was claimed by Moscow that Katyn massacre was done by the Germans. (50 years of lies and blatant denial)

AFAIK Yeltsin did one time bring flowers to the graves of Katyn victims, but still not offical actual *APOLOGY* was made.

If I'm wrong then correct me on this.

http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art6.html

"
In November, the Soviet Government announced plans for a new memorial at Katyn commemorating Polish officers "[who] together with 500 Soviet prisoners . . . were shot by the fascists in 1943 as our army approached Smolensk." This was not true, and the change of dates was a further obfuscation, but more important was the subliminal message directed to the Poles: Russia and Poland were both victims of German aggression, something neither country should forget. 14
In early 1989, three top Soviet officials sent Gorbachev a memorandum warning him that the issue was becoming "more acute" and that "time is not our ally." 15 Some form of official admission, even a partial one, would have to be made. At a Kremlin ceremony on 13 October 1990, Gorbachev handed Jaruzelski a folder of documents that left no doubt about Soviet guilt. He did not, however, make a full and complete disclosure. Missing from the folder was the March 1940 NKVD execution order. Gorbachev laid all blame on Stalin's secret police chief, Lavrenty Beria, and his deputy. (This was a safe move, because Beria and his deputy had been branded criminals and summarily shot by Stalin's successors.) Gorbachev also failed to mention that the actual number of victims was 21,857--more than the usually cited figure of 15,000. By shaving the truth, Gorbachev had shielded the Soviet Government and the Communist Party, making Katyn look like a rogue secret police action rather than an official act of mass murder."

For all done Under stalin - all deportations and deaths - there was XX party conference (who don't know what's that - as me)which can not be understood anyhow, but as apology.

XX conference of the communistic part of Soviet Union? Or something elser?

So WE ARE NOT PROUD OF THAT, MICHAEL.
and we apologised.

I'm not sure about the apology... I think it took 50 years to simply admit the truth, without even mentioning an apology.
("yes,we did it" is not equal to "yes,we did it and it was a shameful and barbaric act,we are sorry")

BTW it's 'interesting' to see how some/many Russians justify Katyn, how they say it was't anything bad or shameful "because of X",etc etc.


Michael

[Balamut]

Peter's visits to the West impressed upon him the notion that European customs were in several respects superior to Russian traditions"

But this doesn't confirm good intentions of invaders to ennoble us.

)October Revolution - huge blood bath among Russians themselves
2)Ukrainian Great Famine
3)17.09.1939 - invasion of Poland together with Hitler, Katyn massacre and other smaller murders and repressions against Poles.
4)1940- occupation of Baltics, Balts being opressed and murdered
5)1941-1945 - notorious murder of POWs, notorious robberies and rapes on civilians made by Red Army soldiers.
6)Annexation of Baltics, enslaving of Baltics,Poland,Czechoslovakia,etc.
7)Bloodbath in Hungary
8)Invasion of Czechoslovakia
9)War in Afghanistan and the crimes against Afghan people.
10)Chechnyan wars and the continuing murder and opression of Chechen people.

BTW for me it's not so much about apologies...more about something like admitting that yes, your national history and tradition is ****ed up.

1) Most of countries in this world had revolutions, which ended as civil wars and bloodbaths.
2)It wasn't on purpose. Collectivization, mismanagement and overall bad harvest in whole USSR.
3)We'r talking about it right now.
4)XX conference of the communistic part of Soviet Union ( Yes, Michael) Hruschev, Stalin's cult exposure, Amnesty, Rehabilitation.
5) Uuuu wiiiide theme. Based of myths, that soviets was worser then everyone. Do you know that in soviet army, rapists were shot on the place without court-martial?
6) Look number 4.
7-8) Silly thing made, yes, but it's like USA and Nikaragua/Salvador/Chile or England and India/Ireland/China
9)Like anyone else.
10) War is just, They got what they wanted .

Question was: are we proud and did we appologised and double in brass - are we worser then others.

No, none of those is our pride
No, we are not worser then others, many countries have dirty loundry together with sceletons in the closets

On the contrary I want to ask you - why do you think russians are proud of dirty deeds? That's idiotism.

P.S. But I read ( now and before) that Gorbachev appologised. To settle this we must find his speech or leave it.

P.P.S.>>> making Katyn look like a rogue secret police action rather than an official act of mass murder."
Wasn't it?

[Edited by Balamut on 30th March 2005 at 00:31]

[Zbyszek]

1. Gorbachow was the first to mention that Stalin's order concerning Katyn massacre was found in Russian archives.

2. On October 14, 1992 Russia's pres. Boris Yetsin disclosed the content of secret Stalin's order for the NKVD dated March 5, 1940.

3. August 1993 - President Boris Yetsin arrived in Warsaw, came to so called Katyn Valley in the largest Warsaw's Powazki Graveyard and said "Forgive us if you can".

4. 1995 - Pres. Boris Yetsin brought a copy of important documents connected with Katyn crime during his official visit in Warsaw and handed it over to Poland's president Lech Walesa.

I hope this information will close the Russian apology question. I really appreciate Yeltsin's gesture, same as Walesa did in 1993. It is a pity that memory of it disappeared so quickly. I hope majority of Russian people are not ashamed of Yeltsin's long awaited words.

[vorosilov]

Hello Zbyszek,


But people here want the Russian people to take responsibity and apologize for everything and this is what I don't like...
The Baltics, Poles, Ukrainians and so on so on.. Didn't they kill anybody?

[Zbyszek]

Hi Vorosilov,
Apologies somehow became desired and fashionable and it is surely not only Russia's problem.
Maybe you remember situation in Poland in the midst of communism I once described. Primate of Poland, Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski issued his famous words of reconciliation to Germans on the occasion of the Millenium of Polish statehood, 1966: "We forgive and we ask. for being forgiven". Such statement brought foam to Gomulka's face [1st Secr. of the Polish Commparty]. The Cardinal was subjected to ugly, cheap attacks by the communist propaganda. The Gomulka's revenge was withdrawal of Cardinal's passport to Vatican and blocking the Pope Paul the VI's arrival to Poland.
Now, the Cardinal's bold statement is appreciated and remembered warmly on both sides of Oder river.
Another apology made by current president of Poland Aleksander Kwasniewski also became controversial issue. He apologized for resettling over 200 000 Ukrainians living in Poland from their traditional homeland to the west of the country just after WWII (so called operation Wisla 1947). In my opinion, the president's move was correct and due. Again, perceived by some as unjust and one-sided four years ago, only two years later became a valuable asset, brought our mutual relations to the best historic level and Poland received the adequate good response [apology] from President Kuchma 60 years after the crimes of Ukrainian nationalists on Polish civilians in Wolyn 1943.