How majority of Russians see the role of Russia today?

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by Balamut

But this doesn't confirm good intentions of invaders to ennoble us.

Actually there none especially good intentions would be needed.
Simply, Russia under occupation of most (excluding Hitler) European countries would be very likely a better place to live than un-occupied 'free' Russia.

A good example of such paradox happened in Germany- Germany's Western enemies who occupied it's western part, made it BETTER for Germans themselves than the pre-occupation one with pathological Nazi ideology and culture*** and butchers at power. (situation with eastern part is not so clear)

***Culture as a developed set of practical ways of doing things developed by the Nazis which were not part of their official ideology.


Now for example let's imagine that armies of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth take over Russia during Ivan Grozny's reign. What would they do?
Simple: replicate state-of-affairs from Poland-Lithuania,make Russia function like Poland,Lithuania,Belarus and Ukraine, which would effectively mean Russia being made both more civilised (less work for Peter the Great) and safe from madness like the slaughter of Novogorod.
Would the Pole-Lithuanians need to do it out of good intentions? No, but it would still work beneficially.

To put it simply: if a less ****ed-up country occupies a more ****ed-up one, the occupation can be actually beneficial.Nazi Germany as a great real-life example.

1) Most of countries in this world had revolutions, which ended as civil wars and bloodbaths.

Ok, maybe not 'most' but at least some had equal periods of mindless killing.

2)It wasn't on purpose. Collectivization, mismanagement and overall bad harvest in whole USSR.

According to many, it was intended and it was artificial.

4)XX conference of the communistic part of Soviet Union ( Yes, Michael) Hruschev, Stalin's cult exposure, Amnesty, Rehabilitation.

Nice that Hruschev criticised it,but it should have never happened in the first place and many today Russians seem to deny,forget or justify these things.

5) Uuuu wiiiide theme. Based of myths, that soviets was worser then everyone. Do you know that in soviet army, rapists were shot on the place without court-martial?

What about thieves? I know from my family that Soviet soldiers were stealing from local population like crazy. Was there a penalty for that too?

Probably it was like the today Russian Army- in theory there are punishements, in practice they would have to lock up half of your forces in Chechnya.

6) Look number 4.

Nice that Hruschev criticised it,but it should have never happened in the first place and many today Russians seem to deny,forget or justify these things.

7-8) Silly thing made, yes, but it's like USA and Nikaragua/Salvador/Chile or England and India/Ireland/China

8? Probably yes. 7? Not sure,depends.

9)Like anyone else.

1 Million Afghans dead... 'just as everybody else'?

10) War is just, They got what they wanted .

War is what who wanted? Chechen people? I know one and "oddly" it does't look like he wanted it. Odd exception? I don't think so.

Question was: are we proud and did we appologised and double in brass - are we worser then others.

No, none of those is our pride

Generally my thesis is this: Russians do not want to see that things from that list are not miscellanous details, these are the things which Russia's history is primarily about.

Russians often mention their part in defeat of Nazi Germany and are proud of it...

To me, it's hipocrisy and deluding oneself- Soviet Union was a pathological country with pathological ideology/culture and it was't so much different from Nazi Germany, well, they were friends and allies during the first 2 years of WWII.

No, we are not worser then others, many countries have dirty loundry together with sceletons in the closets

True... during XXcentury, IMHO Soviet Union,Nazi Germany and China all had similiarily 'impressive' victim count.

Still,there were the NORMAL countries too...

On the contrary I want to ask you - why do you think russians are proud of dirty deeds? That's idiotism.

No, it's just I'm shocked every time when I hear a Russian saying that he is proud of his homeland and proud of it's past. It makes me really confused every time,looking at that what Russia is and was.

P.S. But I read ( now and before) that Gorbachev appologised. To settle this we must find his speech or leave it.

Ok, Zbyszek wrote that Yeltsin apologised in 1995, Gorbachev-Yeltsin difference and 6 years is no big deal,there was apology for Katyn.

Now *I* feel ashamed for not knowing precisly about the apology issue.


Michael

[vorosilov]

Still,

If I was Russian I would be a very proud Russian and I wouldn't care what a Pole, Estonian of Ukrainian try to say about me and my country.

[Marita]

Vorosilov
I'm Russian and I'm applauding to you.

[Lembitu]

Same here Vorosilov.
But as I understand its good to be proud of being russian but its bad to be proud of being for example estonian?
And I will ask again:
When Russian Federation will apologize for their deeds in Baltic states? (deportations and occupation)?
I still have not got any answer or explanation why you cannot do that.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by vorosilov

Still,

If I was Russian I would be a very proud Russian and I wouldn't care what a Pole, Estonian of Ukrainian try to say about me and my country.

Dobry vyecher Vorosilov. If I were European, I would care a little what other Europeans have to say about my country. If I were Asian I would care much less. If I were an inhabitant of ancient land placed in direct neighbourhood of other ancient lands I would care what the inhabitants of those lands think about me. If I lived on isolated real/virtual island I would care much less. If I lived long enough to understand that my countrymen are just a little percentage of the world's population and that world's population amounts roughly to 6 000 000 000 ants like me I would immediately concluded that it is impossible to love or hate them all and it is better to eat dinner within family circle.

[Dan26]

I don't participate in the forum for quite a while, but here I found a good article. It's translated into russian from polish. I personally agree with the author.
Basicly it tells why katyn is not genocide (aside from other valid points)

http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/218550.html

[Dan26]

I really didn't know much about katyn (I even thought it was somewhere in poland ) and now I read about it enough for me to say **** you to all of those who paint it as genocide, that russia should apologize etc etc etc - it's full of crap. Read some documentary materials. Personally I saw one of the MANY proves that all these comunist party crap was the same evil as german nazis. Personally I think nazi (or better say germany in 30-40) didn't do even half of what communists did; at least they didn't kill their own people the way it was in ex. USSR.
If you read docs you can see what they cared about, this illusion that all the people live (and should live) for the prosperity of communist party etc etc etc... They weren't even people, plain dogs