How majority of Russians see the role of Russia today?

[Voyager13b]

Originally posted by Dan26
I really didn't know much about katyn (I even thought it was somewhere in poland ) and now I read about it enough for me to say **** you to all of those who paint it as genocide, that russia should apologize etc etc etc - it's full of crap. Read some documentary materials. Personally I saw one of the MANY proves that all these comunist party crap was the same evil as german nazis. Personally I think nazi (or better say germany in 30-40) didn't do even half of what communists did; at least they didn't kill their own people the way it was in ex. USSR.
If you read docs you can see what they cared about, this illusion that all the people live (and should live) for the prosperity of communist party etc etc etc... They weren't even people, plain dogs

What did you just say? I'm serious, as I didn't get it. First you suggest that Katyn was a typical walk in the park on a sunny day, then you call the commies a bunch of dogs. Which is it, or do you really mean it when you said that you were commenting about something you know nothing about?

Voyager

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Voyager13b

What did you just say? I'm serious, as I didn't get it. First you suggest that Katyn was a typical walk in the park on a sunny day, then you call the commies a bunch of dogs. Which is it, or do you really mean it when you said that you were commenting about something you know nothing about?
Voyager

What?!? I don't understand what you mean, meaningless mix of words. You ask me (about what??), or you don't agree me?
I didn't know anything about katyn. Just happened I was reading some translations from polish newspapers that mentioned katyn and then after I did some research I found original (well, photo copied) docs signed by beria etc, as well some other docs and then after reading I expressed my opinion.
In other words, katyn is not genoside (may be "genoside" has other meaning that I'm not aware of ), and yes, this regime of communist party was real big pile of boo.
Basicly, one polish newspaper ("Przeglad") writes it something like this - if ussr had any intention for genoside against poles, then poland would not exist today, or at least not those people who initiate these propaganda against russia...

This is my opinion after reading lots of docs, photos etc...

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Dan26
Basicly, one polish newspaper ("Przeglad") writes it something like this - if ussr had any intention for genoside against poles, then poland would not exist today, or at least not those people who initiate these propaganda against russia...

sorry, forgot a little detail, poland wouldn't exist becase there was more than enough time to make this happen after germany was defeated

[Voyager13b]

Well, as I said, I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say in that post. I couldn't dissagree, as I was busy wondering where you were coming from. First, you blasted the right of people to be pissed off that Stalin beheaded the Polish military structure (it was not genocide in my opinion, by the way, it was a classic war crime that should have been punished). Then, you blasted the Soviets as being like "dogs", rather than people.

I was wondering where you stood on the issue, as your post was confuding to say the least. By the way, "genocide" might be the latest buzzword to descrbe what happened there, but it doesn't fit history, and it has nothing to do with asking for an apology. The truth is that the sick beast from Georgia called Stalin ordered (through the NKVD) about 27,000 Polish military captives to be murdered at three wooded locations, including Katyn. That isn't genocide as I see it, but it is reason to hang the ba$tard who ordered the executions. To top it all off, the sack of human excrement denied that he had anything to do with it, and blamed it on the NAZI's. The Krauts were bad enough in their own right, but for them to shine the light of day on crimes that Stalin committed was a humiliating blow to Soviet ego.

The fact that Soviet leadership denied the event for decades, even though the world knew better, didn't help things at all. I think it is reasonable for Russia to offer an official apology to their neighbor at this point in time, considering the madness of the crime, and the duration of the coverup. If the Pope could apologize to the Jews for Vatican inaction during WWII (which he did), it should be easy for Putin to apologize for one murderous Soviet event, and the decades of lies that followed. It's called being a good neighbor.

Voyager

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Voyager13b
...

The fact that Soviet leadership denied the event for decades, even though the world knew better, didn't help things at all. I think it is reasonable for Russia to offer an official apology to their neighbor at this point in time, considering the madness of the crime, and the duration of the coverup. If the Pope could apologize to the Jews for Vatican inaction during WWII (which he did), it should be easy for Putin to apologize for one murderous Soviet event, and the decades of lies that followed. It's called being a good neighbor.

Voyager

THANK YOU sooooo much for your post Voyager! You touched the deep level of Polish sensitivity and you did so honestly. All that discussion about the crime qualification looks like one more dodging manouver aimed at blurring so simple truth. Silent stab in the back 1940 and the following big lie of Stalin enraged the Polish military during WWII and only now, knowing the truth, we can understand what a scoundrel Stalin was. The leaders of the Allied Forces were not interested in revealing the smelly thing because it could harm their good cooperation with the Soviets.
All through those years after WWII Katyn was a taboo and extremely dangerous subject in Poland. One casual word about it at a birthday party in the fifties could easily be (and used to be!) translated into prison term.
Now, only bare truth and showing some human compassion for the victims can gradually heal this deep wound.

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Voyager13b
Well, as I said, I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say in that post. I couldn't dissagree, as I was busy wondering where you were coming from. First, you blasted the right of people to be pissed off that Stalin beheaded the Polish military structure (it was not genocide in my opinion, by the way, it was a classic war crime that should have been punished). Then, you blasted the Soviets as being like "dogs", rather than people.

I don't know why you say stalin, but you may read yourself (if you can) this paper http://katyn.codis.ru/beria1.gif beria2, beria3 and 4.
These papers where secret for long time and just a few years (~10 or so) they were given to poland. From what I read it was not stalin initiative at all. If you don't know, for that execution to take place many people had to give their agreement. If you read it you'll understand that this cannot be genoside at all. I personally don't blame stalin for that event.
From this paper - "..Èñõîäÿ èç òîãî ÷òî îíè ÿâëÿþòñÿ çàêîðåíåëûìè, íåèñïðàâèìûìè âðàãàìè ñîâåòñêîé âëàñòè...", for me it's equal to "..soviets were the real enemies of humans..."

..First, you blasted the right of people to be pissed off..

Ïî÷èòàé ïîäáîðêó íà http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/218550.html. (Ñàìó ñòàòüþ è âíóçó ññûëêè íà äðóãèå). Ïðîñòî ïî÷èòàâ ïîíÿòíî êòî ñåé÷àñ ãëàâíûé âðàã ó ðîññèè. Òàì ïîëíî ìíåíèé (ðàçíîñòîðîííèõ) è íå òîëüêî î êàòûíè. Êîãäà ÿ ïî÷èòàë âïåðâûå ýòè ôîðóìû ÿ â øóòêó, èëè íå ñîâñåì â øóòêó, íàïèñàë ÷òî ÷èòàÿ ïîñòû ïîëÿêîâ è ïðèáàëòîâ âèäíî ÷òî îíè äåéñòâèòåëüíî âðàæåñêè íàñòðîåíû ïðîòèâ ðîññèè (è â òî æå âðåìÿ ðóññêèå èõ íàçûâàþò áðàòüÿìè-ñëàâÿíàìè), à êòî-òî òàì äàâàé â îòâåò þëèòü ÷òî ìîë îí íå ïðîòèâ ñî ñâîèìè ðóññêèìè òîâàðèùàìè âûïèòü ïèâî è òä à ïîòîì åùå äîáàâèëè ÷òî ðîññèÿ ýòî ÷òî-òî âðîäå ñòàíà äèêàðåé. Òàì ïðÿì â îäíîé ñòàòüå (èç ïîëüñêîé ãàçåòû) ãîâîðèòñÿ ÷òî òàêîå ìíåíèå î ïîëüøå ó áîëüøèíñòâà åâðîïåéñêèõ ñòðàí, ÷òî ïîëüøà æèâåò ïðîøëûì íå çàáîòÿñü î íàñòîÿùåì. Êîðî÷å ñòîèò ïî÷èòàòü ìàòåðèàë - òàì êîíå÷íî â îñíîâíîì ïðî-ðîññèûñêàÿ ïîäáîðêà íî è åñòü íåêîòîðûå ñòàòüè ïðÿìî-ïðîòèâîïîëîæíîãî òîëêà.

PS. This forum sucks hard - it doesn't handle encodings well (it must be utf8 or at least cp1251) and that's why you probably see a set of gibberish istead of what I wrote, session timeout is too short (kinda there's so much importatnt private info here, like in a bank), and very often posts get lost if trying to submit them while session times out
I think it should be utf8 and session timeout > 3hr

[HumanRightsMatter2005]

Originally posted by Marita
Unfortunately Russia is not so strong now, so its neighbours begin to occupy our territories - Amur islands. Kurily, etc. The majority of people disagree with loss of Kurily islands, a lot of Russians in Khabarovsk and at Sakhalin are ready to struggle for our land. It is just but not enough. If we had a patriotic government... Unfortunately we don't have a patriotic government now which would be willing to defend our Motherland from any exterior enemy. While we are weak an invasion threat remains real - just look at Iraq!

Not a fair comparison. Remember Iraq didn't have nuclear weapons. He who has nukes will bever be invaded (until an anti-nuclear shield is developed anyway). I think a lot of Russians are very paranoid about the West.