Russia's not a democracy?

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov
P.S. Orange revolution showed how "free" media can feed people with fairy tales that have little to do with reality. I think soviet censorship was child's play compared to current western one.

[/b][/quote]

Alex, I generally appreciate your posts but sometimes you sound like a propagandist detached from reality. So we should believe that Russia is economic paradise offering minimum wages above $400?
Now, I am reading that the Soviet cencorship was child's play? Have you ever tried to become acquainted with detailed censoring instructions? They were absolutely crazy, covering thousands of topics ranging from innocent political jokes to the Katyn crime handling.
Current western media suffer from information excess and strange accenting but any trial of equating them to the Soviet times means either blindness or success progaganda.

[Marita]

Verbatim,
Do you really want to say that criminal level hasn't changed? It's rather amazing to read...

[Alex_Ivanov]

Originally posted by Zbyszek
So we should believe that Russia is economic paradise offering minimum wages above $400?

I just said once that 400$ is minimum salary I've ever seen (personally). This means that I live in economic paradise, or that I belong to some sort of upper class isolated from poverty around, or that I have hallucinations and mix dreams with reality


Now, I am reading that the Soviet cencorship was child's play? Have you ever tried to become acquainted with detailed censoring instructions?

Soviet censorship was censorship by brute force. Editor took your writings in one hand, instructions in the other hand and cut out everything that was "wrong". Everybody knew there's a censorship and people had a lot of scepticism about official information. I don't know if it was different in Poland, I hope not.

West doesn't have censorship officially. Strange accenting etc. But result of this "accenting" is whole world believing in things that never exited - Iraqi WMD, Kosovo genocide, bright democratic ideals of orange revolution, etc. Soviet machine of propaganda and censorship could not even dream about such results. Such scale was unimaginable for it. That's why it was child's play in comparison.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov

Soviet censorship was censorship by brute force.

Censorship yes, but the whole propaganda was often devious.

Look for example at the Katyn vs Kathyn manipulation.

Everybody knew there's a censorship and people had a lot of scepticism about official information.

"Lots of scepticism"?

Listen, the old propaganda myths are still alive, in fact they surface on this very board every week.
Russians are throughoutly brainwashed in many aspects.

(Wide) Example: Russia/SU's deeds and role in WWII.

West doesn't have censorship officially. Strange accenting etc. But result of this "accenting" is whole world believing in things that never exited - Iraqi WMD, Kosovo genocide, bright democratic ideals of orange revolution, etc. Soviet machine of propaganda and censorship could not even dream about such results.

Or maybe YOU are under the effect of (Kremlin) propaganda and that's why you believe these to be lies.

WMD is one matter, but Orange Revolution is another,same with Kosovo.


Michael

[Alex_Ivanov]

Originally posted by MichaelB_PL
"Lots of scepticism"?

Yes, was it different in communist Poland?

Example: Russia/SU's deeds and role in WWII.

Your memory about first period of the war is selective. Refer to http://www.ukraine.com/forums/showth...?threadid=8259

As for 1944, I become more and more confident in a thought that we shouldn't have crossed Polish border and let you wait in camps for your western saviours for another 5 years. Was that what you truly wanted?


WMD is one matter, but Orange Revolution is another,same with Kosovo.

WMD is the best example of how western myths fail. But it isn't the only one. Kosovo is another? Where're massgraves of albanians? Nowhere. But there're lots of burned serbian churches and houses.

[Lembitu]

Its really funny to read how you both bend the facts this way that tey could support your ideas. But I must say that Michaels words have more sense. He at least can give reasons for hes statments. But same time I must say that oter sides reasons are little dark for me.
About Poland I can tell so much that in 1940 (I can be wrong with year) Red Army greeted germans in the middel of Poland as friends. In 1944 Red Army waited until german had commited another mass murder against poles and after this attacked - they could have saved thousands of lives by attacing earlier. Why they stopped? Because they needed another Katõn, but didnt want to grase their hands anoter time?

[MichaelB_PL]

[quote]Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov

Originally posted by MichaelB_PL
"Lots of scepticism"?

Yes, was it different in communist Poland?

I'd say there was enough scepticism in Poland to make people NOT believe in the propaganda, but I would't say the same about Russia- just reading this forum gives numerous examples of effects of Soviet propaganda still alive.

Your memory about first period of the war is selective. Refer to http://www.ukraine.com/forums/showth...?threadid=8259

How is it selective? If you mean "KillerArmy" posts, they a helpless attempt of justification,which BTW is a good example of that what I wrote in the previous post.

For example, look at the sort of thinking raised by Russians:

"Poles invaded Czechoslovakia with Germans [so it was ok to invade them at 17.09.1939"

Truth: Poles reclaimed tiny part of land which the Czechs took from Poland during the 1920, and it does't in any matter justify Soviets/Russians.

"Poles did't let Soviet troops pass [so it was ok to invade them at 17.09.1939".
Truth: Poland did't have any obligation to let any troops pass and it does't justify 17.09.1939 in any way. Generally Poland was suspicious toward both Germany and SU, as it turned out, correct in both cases.


The things Russians write are not really honest arguments, more like "best effort justification" for things for which they are no good justification.
"Arguments" which are irrational and 95% baseless, but which are used by Russians because the 5% validity is the relatively best things Russians have.

This is what you guys are all about: you have fantasies put into your mind, a idealised vision of your own nation put by propaganda, to which you grow attached emotionally and this is what happens-you can't accept simple facts and are desperately trying to seek out something to make your fantasies look consistent with reality.


Face it: you people helped Hitler re-arm, helped Hitler train troops in secret in Soviet military bases, you invaded Poland together with him.

War between you started when Hitler did it, not you. Before that, NKVD and Gestapo cooperated in extermination of Poles.

You were the thugs no different than Nazis and it's evidenced by facts, hard direct evidence like Nazi-Soviet cooperation.
All you guys say to justify this are just poor emotionally-based excuses.

As for 1944, I become more and more confident in a thought that we shouldn't have crossed Polish border and let you wait in camps for your western saviours for another 5 years.
Was that what you truly wanted?

What I would truly want is SU to stay out and not support Hitler in the 30s.

As for 1944, yes, I would prefer the SU to stay out, war would end in 1945 or 1946 max anyway without you guys (US atomic bomb).

WMD is the best example of how western myths fail.

Yeah, how about "we were the good guys and foes of Hitler during WWII" Russian myth vs "we were bunch of thugs allied with Hitler in the 30s who LATER had a fight with him".

The Westerners do have myths, but they have a mostly true view of reality, they are not severly out-of-touch with it.

Russians on the other hand... well, I think you know well how it is with Russians and their denial.

But it isn't the only one. Kosovo is another? Where're massgraves of albanians? Nowhere. But there're lots of burned serbian churches and houses.

I'm not a fan of Albanians, but you seem to be not well informed about the situation in the Balkans, probably having a idealised vision of the Serbs,most likely just because they are Orthodox.

Song:
""Come on Slobo, send us some salad. We're going to • have some meat, so we'll need the salad for the meat. We're going to slaughter the Croats."

You think these guys did't murder any Albanians?

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-Photographs.htm


Michael