Russia's not a democracy?

[vorosilov]

Originally posted by Zbyszek
To make it very short - in the act of Union of Lublin 1569, Ukraine was tranferred to the Korona [Polish Crone], the Polish part of Rzeczpospolita. It was a peaceful takeover, it proceeded without any fights.
Please, do not think that I question current status of Ukraine.

Hello Zbyszek,

I don't want to talk about whole Ukrain here. I just want to talk about the territorries what the SU retook or as you mention invaded in 1939.

Was that territorry transfered to the Polish Crone as well? And if it was, by who?

Or was it the part of the Polish Crone 1000 years ago?

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by vorosilov

Hello Zbyszek,

I don't want to talk about whole Ukrain here. I just want to talk about the territorries what the SU retook or as you mention invaded in 1939.

Was that territorry transfered to the Polish Crone as well? And if it was, by who?

Or was it the part of the Polish Crone 1000 years ago? [/b]

Hi Voro, the King of Poland and the Grand Duke of Lithuania at the same time - Sigismundus Augustus of Yagiellonian dynasty managed to persuade Polish and Lithianian lords to renew and strengthen the old union. This important act included confirmation of all higher nobility titles in both countries. The Act of Union was written in Polish and Old Ruthenian language. The territorial transfer included both lands placed in the right and left bank of Dnieper River and also the Dikye Polya (Zaporhozya). Galicia/Halychyna with Halych and Lwow had already been Polish territory for two centuries by then (conquered by the King Casimir the Great around 1350).
Now, compare it with Crimea.

Well, the question of ownership belongs rather to philosophical than historical category. We'd better say: administration.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 27th April 2005 at 17:46]

[vorosilov]

Hello Zbyszek,

Now I have to get a map and learning about the history of Poland. Good task...

I don't want to bash here my Polish friends but the constant Russia and Russian bashing what I don't like.


About the Crimea,

Yes, it was Russian expansion on the expense of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Tatars, two torturers of the Russian nation for centuries.
Russian expansion in to the Crimea was sustainable in the long term and it took an international coalition to keep the Russians away from the Bosporus.

What I mean is that I wouldn't mind a mini Bizanthin State instead of Istambul.

[MichaelB_PL]

[quote]Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov

Originally posted by MichaelB_PL
Truth: Poles reclaimed tiny part of land which the Czechs took from Poland during the 1920, and it does't in any matter justify Soviets/Russians.

The fact is Poland took part in forceful division of independent country.

Yes, that is the similiarity. Differences:
A) Lack of war
B) No extermination of civilians

Whether it justifies Soviets or not, you're guilty in exactly the same you blame Soviets for.

Like extermination of [Czech and Slovak] civilians together with Germans?

And also try to justify your mistakes by saying that land was rightfully yours.

Yes,the difference is the calibre and absurdity level of the justification.

BTW 1. You forgot Spis and Orava areas in northern Slovakia with <1% of Polish population. Also rightfully yours?

I know some territories that were taken were mostly Polish, don't know about all.

BTW 2. Poland took part in this criminal act together with nazis. So, using your words, Poland and Germany were allies, but their small differencies led them to war a year later.

There were no allies, for:

1) there was no war, the Czech were't defending themselves against anyone anyway.
2) Poland had no agreement specifying Polish-German division of Czechoslokavia.

Truth: Poland did't have any obligation to let any troops pass and it does't justify 17.09.1939 in any way.

De jure - correct. But de facto Poland did everything to help Hitler establish new order in Europe and thus determined its own fate.

Like: Poland did secretly train Nazi troops on Polish territory?

Or was it Soviet Union that did it?

Also, if Poland would want to help Hitler, would't it be easier to for example give him Gdansk/Danzing in exchange for example of like half of Czechoslovakia and support their march on France or Soviet Union? We could do it if we wanted to, just like Hungarians or Romanians did.

So here's go your "everything".

Poland was't lilly white, but it did't mass murder civilians and it wanted to maintain peace in Europe, unlike Nazi Germany and SU.

You got it wrong. It's not about justification at first place. It's about showing what "our defenceless white and fluffy victim" really was, i.e. bringing your hypocrisy to daylight.

First of all, if you have't noticed, I do not paint Poland as a pure-white innocent country.

But the still, the things Poland did cannot be compared to what Soviet Union and Nazi Germany did, nor does it justify their actions.

Did Poles organize a conference with Gestapo to speak about cooperated extermination of Czechoslovaks?

Did Poles mass-murder ~30 thousands of Czechs/Slovaks like you people did in Katyn?

Think not.

This is what you guys are all about: you have fantasies put into your mind, a idealised vision of your own nation

As was shown above, so are you, Michael-pole.

Actually, you have shown nothing. You just mentioned the Polish occupation/liberation of part of Czechoslovakia, conviniently ignoring all the differences, starting with Polish strong claim to these lands.

It's like "guy named X regained by force his property stolen by guy Y, so it's morally ok to steal from X".

As I have said already: 0-5% validity cause you don't have any better arguments.

I wonder if there would be some Poles by 1946 in such case.

Maybe less, but then they would get to live in free Poland.

Don't you think that if we sum up every body on these photos, it won't be enough for "genocide"?

Yeah, but it looks like some form of mass murder took place, or did't it?


Michael

[NTC]

Originally posted by Marita
I don't say criminals didn't exist at all. But their amount was incomparable with modern. It doesn't depend on newspapers - people may see the criminal situation in their own district by their own experience.
What are in fact the advantages of democracy? There aren't any.

This is the most ridiculous post I've ever read. Quick question: did you have the right to read Dr. Zhivago? Or maybe protest against the government? Simple things, I know. But simple things make life oh that much more pleasant and FREE.

Maybe you forgot about Lybyanka? Is that where all the "criminals" went?

Marita, your problem is that you cling to these Marxist ideals that bring nothing but social corosion and pain everywhere they are preached. Wake up! There is no heaven on earth and there will never be one. Idealists like you are to be commended for caring so much, but in the end, the world is a real thing not an abstract thought.

Also, don't blame democracy for Russia's woes. Take 70 years of Soviet oppression and corruption, mix it with 5 years of cowboy banditry, add in some adhoc reforms enacted without due dilligence and go ahead and stir in a drunken bafoon for a leader....what do you get? The perfect recipe for disaster and social collapse. I often wonder why commies like you never take full responsibility for the degredation of Russian society. It wasn't capitalism that tried to stamp out Russian culture and it definitely wasn't capitalism that bread a generation of welfare-state worshipers who knew next to nothing about how to control their own destinies without dyadya Lenin or Marx guiding them by their hands. Truly, the blame rests in the hands of those who refused to admit that the "grab life by the horns"(pardon the American euphemism) mentallity is one that should be embraced.

[NTC]

Michael, you need a new hobby besides playing the WAHolin.

Some historians point to the fact that WWI never really ended and in fact, WWII was just a continuation of the previous conflict. If you were to look at things from that perspective, the invasion of Poland by CCCP was done only to get "a small piece" of the former Russian Empire back. What? Are you saying Poles can take back "small pieces" of Poland from Czechs,

Originally by WAHolin player Michael
Poles reclaimed tiny part of land which the Czechs took from Poland during the 1920, and it does't in any matter justify Soviets/Russians.

but Russians can't take "small pieces" of Russia from Poland? Tsk tsk..

Why do we need to justify the invasion? Wait, are you looking for an apology? Well god dammit, I want an apology from the Turks for invading Armenia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Israel....and then I want an apology from the Mongols who invaded most of the Eurasian world. Then I want an apology from the Japanese who invaded all of Southeast Asia. Then I want an apology from the Americans who conquered Cherokee and Iriquois land. And then I want an apology from the Spaniards who killed off all the Incas and Aztecs. Then I want an apology............

Give it up, WAHoling player. Maybe you should go back in time and ask every great empire why they bullied their neighbors around. And then DEMAND an apology of course!

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed this, how about you Mishka kishka?

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov

1. You forgot Spis and Orava areas in northern Slovakia with <1% of Polish population. Also rightfully yours?

[/quote]

This is incorrect Alex, The Czech authorities reluctantly agreed to arrange national polls in the disputed areas in 1919 but when Poland was in trouble a year later (offensive of Tukhachevskij, Polish-Soviet war 1920) the Czech troops invaded these areas and you could forget about the agreement.

Spisz (currently in Slovakia) is a fine historic/tourist area of several towns which were curious Polish islands in the historic Kingdom of Hungary.

Alleged number <1% of Poles is a fairy tale. Orava was finally divided between Poland and Slovakia. It is still divided. It was never a big deal.

At the same time I admit that taking back those territories in 1938 by Poland was improper and stupid at the same time.