Bala + Alex

[Cherniy_Petka]

Originally posted by scandinavian
NTC..

Russia is not going to become isolated from Europe economically. How is that supposed to happen? The socialists are losing this place. They are having their asses kicked.

And it wouldn't be much of a blow to them if they lost the US as a trade partner, as it is not even among the top 5 trade partners.

Wishful thinking NTC..

Russian exports..
Germany 8.4%, Italy 6.2%, China 5.8%, Ukraine 5.7%, Belarus 5.7%, Netherlands 5.6%, Switzerland 5%, US 4.6% (2003)

Imports..
Germany 15.4%, Belarus 7.7%, China 7.4%, Ukraine 6.6%, Italy 4.9%, US 4.6%, France 4.5%, Kazakhstan 4.1%, Finland 4.1% (2003)

What was your point, because you obviously missed mine...

Maybe you should try to read what was written before trying to sound intelligent. The crux of the argument is that Russia needs foreign capital (especially American venture capital) to accelerate its small to medium sized business growth. What part of that don't you understand?

I don't give a rat's ass if the Europeans want to "trade" with Russia, because if you look at what Russia trades it's more like Europe exploiting Russia. Do you know what those export numbers to Western Europe are comprised of? I doubt it. So let me shed some light (bold is export):

Food Products and Agricultural Raw Materials 1.5 21.4

Mineral Goods(Gas, Oil, Petrol, Ores, Coal etc.) 60.0 1.2

Chemical Products and Rubber 6.2 18.4

Leather Raw Materials, Furs and their products 0.2 0.4

Wood, Timber, Pulp and Paper Goods 4.3 4.5

Textiles and Footwear 0.5 4.1

Precious Stones and Precious Metals 4.6 0.1

Ferrous and Non-Ferrous Metals and Products 14.3 4.9

Machinery, Equipment and Transport Equipment 7.1 40.8

Other goods (which are not mentioned above) 1.3 4.2

SO there you go Scavinavian, Western Europe takes minerals from Russia and replaces it with machine goods and agriculture equipment and products. But THIS ISN'T THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE. Exports/Imports are independent of INVESTMENT. Investment comes from direct infusion of capital into Russia, NOT taking Russian mineral resources OUT of the country. I'm sure a simpleton such as yourself might even understand the difference. Russia is a friggin gold mine for foreign capital, if this capital is actually protected by rule of law and encouraged to build. Look at the Chinese for crying out loud. Their whole economy was built up thanks to huge investments made by the West. Where is Western investment in Russia at this scale? It doesn't exist. Every westerner is looking only to natural resource exploitation, not actual investment into Russian business. I understand why the government stepped in to keep natural resource profits in the country, but now it needs to understand that to be fully independent you need to diversify. How long can this oil boom last? What happens if it begins to fade?

Btw, the only wishful thinking is on your part Scavi... Socialism is an ill that has infected all of Western Europe. I feel bad for people like you who don't want this PCesque culture to supercede your own. But face the facts, your scandanavian countries will forever be socialist and so will France, Britain and the rest of the misfits of western Europe. Well, that is until you guys turn into Eurostan and transform into the New Caliphate. Europe is dead broke anyway, soon enough your growth will settle down into the negative to 1% range. Your own sloth will crush you. (let's not go into this but stay on the topic, which deals with Putin's future intentions)

ps. Sucks to be you. Oh, and besides Germany, I don't see any European countries making any sort of economic connections.

[akhmet-bek]

Posted by Alex_Ivanov
...P.S. But it would be wrong to say that there's no threat of revolution. This threat is real. One more pro-west Eltsin at power and Russia is over, we know it well, our enemies know it well. Fight is coming. It's time for everyone to choose his side....

I need you to explane this,Alex.I"m sure ain't the brightest nail in the toolbox,so I don't understand what "...One more pro-west Eltsin at power and Russia is over..." means.In your educated opinion,Alex,how and why the dreaded evil West is gonna destroy Russia? And no putinist,"Rodina"-style slogans,please.
Alex,Japan has been "Westernised" long time ago.It never lost it's idenity,culture,etc. And I know at least one big Russian patriot,who just bought a Japaneese junker car and is mighty happy about it,too...Is there anything wrong with Russian cars? You see,Alex,I'm an American patriot,and,so I only buy American cars/trucks.

[Balamut]

so I don't understand what "...One more pro-west Eltsin at power and Russia is over..." means.

Russia will be bought.

You see,Alex,I'm an American patriot,and,so I only buy American cars/trucks.

Blind patriotism? IMO it's not fundamentally important. I see one big American patriot who prefers SVD.

[Alex_Ivanov]

Originally posted by akhmet-bek
In your educated opinion,Alex,how and why the dreaded evil West is gonna destroy Russia?

Let's begin from "why". I shall not speak about "hardened hatred to anything Russian", I shall speak about economics. Today Russia is, from one side, is a source of raw materials for the West. From the other side, Russia is a huge market for western goods. They need Russia to be calm and unambitious to make the picture idyllic.

Developped Russia is against their interests. Again pure economics. More raw materials are consumed inside, less export. More products are made, less imports. And plus, developped and ambitious Russia is a strong competitor for the West on other markets. They will do everything not to let us raise.

Installation of "Russian Yuschenko" will be an attempt to submiss Russia politically, to remove last obstacles on their way. We shall not let it happen. No matter how we like our current leaders - they're better than their possible pro-western successors.

Fortunately, by 2008 we shall have have a good example before our eyes - Ukraine without own industry, flooded by western goods, source of labour force for the West. I'm sure we shall not be impatient to follow.

[Marita]

It's true. The West is intersted in our raw materials, in our resources but nothing else. It does and will do its best to prevent development of Russian economic as economic of independent country.

[Cherniy_Petka]

Originally posted by Marita
It's true. The West is intersted in our raw materials, in our resources but nothing else. It does and will do its best to prevent development of Russian economic as economic of independent country.

Wrong.

Western corporations have an interest to develop Russia, exactly the same way they are developing China. These are brand new emerging markets for products. The bottom line to any investor is $$$ and profit. If you can expand profits and enrich someone, then you are looked at as an opportunity. While Russia has unlimited potential, Western companies don't know if in three months their affiliates in Russia will be hit with a "back-tax" bill that will cripple them and wipe out any investments made. Every western company answers to its stockholders. If you lose money, you lose you job. It's very simple.

Stability and certainty are the cornerstones of investment. If you have neither, you will get dulyu c makom.

[Cherniy_Petka]

Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov


Let's begin from "why". I shall not speak about "hardened hatred to anything Russian", I shall speak about economics. Today Russia is, from one side, is a source of raw materials for the West. From the other side, Russia is a huge market for western goods. They need Russia to be calm and unambitious to make the picture idyllic.

Not true. China is a much larger consumer and producer of Western goods. It seems to be handling this well enough and the West has been turning a blind eye to Chinese ambitions for a while. They've expanded their reach all the way into Africa and former Soviet satellite countries.

Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov
Developped Russia is against their interests. Again pure economics. More raw materials are consumed inside, less export. More products are made, less imports. And plus, developped and ambitious Russia is a strong competitor for the West on other markets. They will do everything not to let us raise.[/b]

You may be right about the raw materials, but the product cycle isn't controlled the way you describe. American trade imbalances should give you a counterexample. Russia is much richer than just in raw materials. Russians themselves are a resource that no other nation has. If simple me can see this, I'm sure smarter people at the top companies can see it as well. Boeing is investing 3bil in Russian aerospace industry and actually calling for one central company with whom they can do business with.

Politics aside, Wall Street answers to dollars not political ideologies.

I'm still wondering why China has done alright for itself...

Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov
Installation of "Russian Yuschenko" will be an attempt to submiss Russia politically, to remove last obstacles on their way. We shall not let it happen. No matter how we like our current leaders - they're better than their possible pro-western successors.[/b]

Pro-Western doesn't necessarily have to be a "Russian Yushchenko". What is pro-West anyway? Market economics? Or is there some other definition that fits?

Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov
Fortunately, by 2008 we shall have have a good example before our eyes - Ukraine without own industry, flooded by western goods, source of labour force for the West. I'm sure we shall not be impatient to follow. [/b]

Or conversely, you'll have a Ukraine flooded with foreign capital that invests in the country and builds up a struggling economy. Time will tell.