War in Jugoslavija

[titoman]

Here is what I found, and I think that it is what I have been looking for a long time.I found it only in Slovenian language, but I tried and translated it in English, I tried not to make mistakes, sorry for any of them.




In Slovenian:



Veliko je bilo govora o vojnah v bivši SFRJ in kdo jih je zacel. Vecinoma so se s svojimi tezami ljudje, ki so o teh vojnah govorili, želeli znebiti svoje krivde in so krivdo prelagali na druge. Na koncu so celotno krivdo hoteli preložiti na Slobodana Miloševica, kar ne drži. V naslednjem tekstu preberite resnicne vzroke, ki so pripeljale do vojne v SFRJ. Po tem boste ugotovili, da so za vojno krivi VSI (najvec Slovenija in Hrvaška) - pretežno politiki na teh podrocjih Balkana.
Kot vemo je Jugoslavija prek Države Slovencev Hrvatov in Srbov, Kraljevine Srbov Hrvatov in Slovencev in nato Federativne Ljudske Republike Jugoslavije -...- do Socialisticne federativne republike Jugoslavije nastala na zacetku zaradi tega, da bi se jugoslovanski narodi skupaj uprli narašcajocim težnjam Italijanov, Avstrijcev in Madžarov, ter drugih držav, ki so jih hotele podjarmiti in uniciti njihovo narodno identiteto. Jugoslavija je bila edina rešitev za te narode, ker bi v nasprotnem primeru izginili v procesu ponemcevanja, poitaljevanja, itd. S skupnimi mocmi so se vsi ti narodi ubranili pred okupatorji, ki so jih oblegali vse do konca druge svetovne vojne in predstavljali tudi po njej nevarnost za vse te narode. Jugoslovanski narodi so znotraj Jugoslavije imeli kar veliko stopnjo samostojnosti - nihce jim ni vsiljeval, naj ne bodo te narodnosti, kot so. Kot vemo so celo Muslimani v Jugoslaviji bili v petdesetih letih priznani kot narodnost (ceprav so dejansko islamizirani Slovani (Hrvatje in Srbi). Jugoslavijo je vodil izredno karizmaticen clovek, Tito, ki je bil priljubljen ne le v Jugoslaviji, ampak v celem svetu in v njegovem casu je Jugoslavija doživljala velik napredek. V nasprotju z drugimi komunisticnimi državami, Jugoslavija nikoli ni bila popolnoma komunisticna, ampak je bila nekaj vmes med komunisticno in tržno usmerjeno državo. Zanimivo je, da so prebivalci drugih komunisticnih držav Jugoslovane imeli za zahodnjake, za tržno usmerjene. Takšno mnenje so imele tudi zahodne sile, ki so Jugoslavijo kljub temu še vedno imele za dokaj komunisticno.
Ko so se nevarnosti pred izgubo narodne identitete z razvojem demokracije v zahodnih državah (zlasti Italiji in Avstriji) za jugoslovanske narode zmanjševale, so nekateri pripadniki teh narodov zaceli z nacionalisticnimi težnjami po lastni državi enega naroda. Tito je rastoce nacionalizme v jugoslovanskih republikah uspešno blažil s svojo karizmo in ugledom, ki ga je imel, in ga je imela zato tudi Jugoslavija, v vsem svetu. In zanimivo je, da ga ima vecina prebivalcev bivših jugoslovanskih republik od Slovenije do Makedonije v lepem spominu, ce odštejemo politicne zapornike komunisticnega režima (nobena država na žalost ni pravicna, bodisi zahodna bodisi vzhodna, bodisi komunisticna, bodisi demokraticna, povsod prihaja do politicnih spletk) in kolaboracioniste in simpatizerje nemških nacistov in italijanskih fašistov (domobranci, ustaši, cetniki). Tito je s svojo karizmo blažil nacionalizme in je Jugoslavijo uspel ohraniti do svoje smrti. Po Titovi smrti so se nacionalizmi v vseh republikah povecevali. Ker ni bilo vec karizmaticne osebe, ki bi blažila nacionalizme, se je oblast vse bolj opirala na represijo, da se upre vse mocnejšim separatistom in nacionalistom. Nacionalizmi so se vse bolj širili in tudi mnogo predstavnikov tedanje oblasti je podleglo nacionalisticnim skušnjavam. Jugoslavija je postajala vse bolj ogrožena s strani separatisticnih posameznikov in se upirala temu, kolikor se je dalo. Vse je kulminiralo do "velikega poka" v koncu osemdesetih in zacetku devetdesetih.
Glavni republiki, ki sta delovali v smeri odcepitve od Jugoslavije sta bili najprej Slovenija in nato Hrvaška.


Slovenija:

Vojno je zacela Slovenija z izkazom neposlušnosti zvezni vladi v Beogradu, zaradi cesar so zvezne oblasti reagirale. (Za lažje razumevanje: V kolikor bi se davcni zavezanec odlocil, da ne bo vec placeval davkov državi in jih resnicno ne bi vec placeval, torej bi bil neposlušen, bi ga država poskušala prisiliti, naj izpolnjuje svoje obveznosti, ki jih ima do države.) Zvezne oblasti so hotele Slovenijo prisiliti naj spoštuje pravila znotraj države, ki jih je zacela kršiti. Na koncu je zaradi stopnjujocih kršitev, in ogrožanja suverenosti SFRJ, Jugoslavija s silo skušala Slovenijo opozoriti, da krši vse pravne predpise znotraj države. Mednarodna skupnost je takrat bila ves cas na strani oblasti v bivši Jugoslaviji, ker jo je želela ohraniti. Ni hotela razpada Jugoslavije. Slovenija se je ob prihodu jugoslovanske vojske uprla in tudi zacela napadati objekte jugoslovanske vojske v Sloveniji, ki jih je napadala in jim nagajala že prej (npr. izkljucitev vode in elektrike jugoslovanskim vojašnicam in podobne stvari). "Vojna" je trajala 10 dni. Tu ni prišlo do zmage slovenske vojske, kot trdi dosti Slovencev, ker je bilo razmerje sil neprimerljivo. Za lažje razumevanje bom podal en zelo banalen, morda celo otroški primer: Kot da bi se stepla lev in slon in bi slon zaradi drugih razlogov šel stran in bi nato lev rekel, kako je premagal slona, ceprav vsi vemo, da lev slona zaradi razlike v moci ne more premagati. Po dolocenem premisleku so se jugoslovanske oblasti odlocile, da bodo Sloveniji pustile odhod iz Jugoslavije. To ni bilo zaradi premoci Slovenije, pa tudi zaradi uspešne slovenske propagandne vojne ne in tudi zaradi "uspešnega lobiranja" slovenskih politikov ne. Jugoslovanskim oblastem preprosto ni bilo vec v interesu obdržati Slovenije, ker zanje ni bila pomembna. Tudi zato, ker je bila narodnostno še kar cista in ni imela problema manjšin (vedeti moramo, da se je v Beogradu poleg še vedno zakoreninjene želje po ohranitvi Jugoslavije, pojavljal tudi srbski nacionalizem, ki je Slovenijo na koncu kot nepomembno clanico "crtal" iz Jugoslavije.). Slovenija je s svojo neposlušnostjo zanetila iskro, ki je povzrocila vse vojne na podrocju bivše Jugoslavije, sama je pa v vojni ostala skoraj nepoškodovana, ce odštejemo desetdnevno "vojno", ki je zanemarljiva. Najvecja škoda Sloveniji je povzrocena zaradi tega, ker je izgubila veliko jugoslovansko tržišce, zaradi cesar so propadla mnoga podjetja, ki so bila odvisna od jugoslovanskega trga (Tam, Pionir, tudi Peko ima težave zaradi tega,...). Za to je po eni strani kriva Slovenija sama, to so negativne posledice odcepitve od Jugoslavije.


Hrvaška:

Vojna na Hrvaškem je bila logicno nadaljevanje. Pouceni s primerom slovenskih sosedov, so tudi Hrvatje zaceli napadati vojašnice jugoslovanske vojske in povzrocili odzive jugoslovanske vojske na njihove provokacije, ter tako zanetili vojno na Hrvaškem. Mednarodna skupnost je bila na zacetku še vedno za skupno Jugoslavijo, a ko je videla, da je stanje v Jugoslaviji vse hujše, da so nacionalizmi vse vecji, si je na koncu rekla: "Ah, ti ljudje (balkanci) se bodo med sabo unicili, ce bodo skupaj. Potem pa naj bodo samostojni, saj Jugoslavije vec tako in tako ne bomo mogli, kljub naši želji, obdržati." Zato so priznali Slovenijo in Hrvaško - seveda tudi zato, ker so grozote vojne na Hrvaškem obkrožile svet. Hrvaška je v najvecji meri pomagala Sloveniji pri neodvisnosti. Slovenija zaradi svoje nepomembnosti ni bila prevec pomemben dejavnik. V Hrvaški je bil dolocen problem. Imela je ogromno manjšino Srbov, 12%, ki so se zbali, da bodo getoizirani v Hrvaški, da bodo izgubili povezavo z maticno Republiko - Srbijo, zato so se tudi sami uprli, zvezne oblasti pa so stopile na njihovo stran, ker so kljub razlicnim motivom, oboji bili za ohranitev Jugoslavije. Srbi so zasledovali predvsem nacionalisticni motiv in motiv prepreciti izgubo stikov z maticno domovino Srbijo (Spomnite se na primer Koroških Slovencev v Avstriji, ki so izgubili stik s Slovenijo in so podvrženi tihi asimilaciji, ki bo privedla cez cas do njihovega izumrtja - oziroma: imeli se bodo za Avstrijce). Vojna v Hrvaški je bila torej pogojena z željo Hrvaške po odcepitvi, enak separatisticen motiv kot v Sloveniji, s tem, da je Hrvaška doživela veliko hujše posledice kot Slovenija.
Bosna in Hercegovina:
Vojna na Hrvaškem je pomenila zacetek konca Jugoslavije (ce odštejemo Slovenijo). Naslednja je bila Bosna in Hercegovina. Tudman in Miloševic sta kazala teritorialne pretenzije do delov Bosne in Hercegovine, ker so tam živeli številni predstavniki njunih narodov. Srbi so se hoteli pripojiti Srbiji, Hrvati Hrvaški. Šele vojna v BIH je mednarodno skupnost obrnila bolj proti vladi v Beogradu, ker bi razpad Bosne in Hercegovine lahko povzrocil separatisticna gibanja tudi drugod po svetu. Težko so se sprijaznili z razbitjem Jugoslavije z razlicnimi narodi a razbitje posameznih republik niso mogli tolerirati, ker bi lahko drugi separatisti, ki so še nekako razumeli razbitje Jugoslavije, dobili zgled v razkosanju BIH. Rekli bi si: "Ce so se oni razcepili, zakaj se ne bi tudi mi." Vojna v BIH je bila posledica predvsem teritorialnih pretenzij Hrvaške in Srbije do BIH. Tedaj je vojna prenehala biti državljanska - kot je bila v Sloveniji ali na Hrvaškem, ampak se je lahko oznacila kot meddržavna. Mednarodna skupnost je "uspela" v Bosni in Hercegovini storiti tisto, cesar ni uspela (kljub velikim željam) v Jugoslaviji - Obdržati državo na kupu, ceprav je tudi Bosna dejansko razcepljena, a ne formalno. Resnica je, da BiH ni hotela razpada Jugoslavije, kot sta to hoteli Slovenija in Hrvaška.

Kosovo:


Kosovo je poseben primer - pouceni z nacionalizmom, ki so ga videli v Sloveniji, Hrvaški in BIH - so se tudi Albanci želeli odcepiti od Srbije, še zlasti po tem, ko so Srbi, ki so Albance smatrali kot nekakšen narod, ki jim je odvzel "zibelko srbstva" - Kosovo in ki jih je odganjal z njihovih domov, kar je po eni strani tudi res, ker so bili Albanci dokaj netolerantni do drugih narodnosti na Kosovu že prej, in so se druge narodnosti odseljevale s Kosova zaradi nadlegovanja s strani Albancev. Miloševic je enkrat za vselej hotel rešiti albanski problem na Kosovu, kateremu je grozila odcepitev od maticne države zaradi separatisticnih teženj Albancev in tudi zaradi prevelike plodnosti Albancev, ki je ogrožala narode poleg katerih so Albanci živeli. Znano je, da so Albanci zelo "ploden" narod in se razmnožujejo dosti hitreje kot drugi narodi, zaradi cesar jih prerašcajo in tako ogrožajo narodno identiteto tamkajšnjih narodov (takšno tezo zagovarja dosti ljudi, med drugim SAZU v Srbiji). Ker je Miloševic hotel odgnati Albance iz njihovih domov, in tako povzrocil ogromno humanitarno krizo, je mednarodna skupnost zacela reagirati, ne glede na to, da tega najprej ni hotela narediti (predvsem zaradi Rusije, Francije, Grcije in Italije). Miloševiceve ambicije so bile tokrat prevelike. Srbija je v tej vojni pokazala ogromno sposobnost propagandne vojne, kot jo (ucinkovito propagando) je bilo moc zaslediti le še na Hrvaškem in so Srbi uspeli opozoriti na napake znotraj NATA, ki je zaradi številnih napak moral najti grešnega kozla za vso situacijo. Grešnega kozla so našli v Miloševicu, cetudi so tudi sami v veliki meri odgovorni za vojne v Jugoslaviji z nesposobno politiko in dejanskim podpihovanjem vojne (npr. Genscher, ki je s svojim delovanjem posredno "podpihoval" vojno in nacionalizem na Hrvaškem in v Sloveniji).

Makedonija:

Vojna v Makedoniji je rezultat separatisticnih teženj Albancev, kot nadaljevanje nacionalisticno motiviranih sporov na Balkanu. Makedonci zaradi tega, ker so obkroženi z do njih sovražnimi državami tudi niso bili za odcepitev od Jugoslavije, a so izšli iz nje z razpadom Jugoslavije med vojno v BIH, cetudi to ni bila njihova srcna želja. Pac se je zgodilo tako, da so dobili samostojnost, ki jim na žalost ne zagotavlja mirnega in srecnega življenja. Od vseh sosednih narodov imajo Makedonci še "najrajši" Srbe in Crnogorce, ker imajo ti še najmanj (oziroma sploh nimajo) teženj do Makedonskega naroda, ker Srbov v Makedoniji ni veliko (kot npr Albancev) in jih Srbi nimajo za svoje (kot jih imajo Bolgari), ter niso proti imenu njihove države (Grcija).

Èrna gora:

Èrna gora - glede na to, da je bila pretežno v zvezi s Srbijo, je utrpela (predvsem sankcije) skupaj s Srbijo, ceprav je dokaj poceni šla skozi balkanski pekel, razen Slovenije, ki je imela najvec srece od vseh.














In English:


There was a lot talking about wars in former SFRJ and who started them. Mostly people that were guilty talked about it, because they wanted to put guiltiness to someone else. At the end they wanted to put guiltyness to Slobodan Miloševiæ (as we see today, they are doing it very well) , but that is not true. In the foillowing text read true reasons, which led to war in SFRJ. After that you will find out that for war are responsible ALL (mostly Slovenia and Croatia) - mainly politicians on these parts of Balkans.

As we know Jugaslovia was formed as: first "Country of Slovenians, Croatians and Serbians", then "Kingdom of Serbians, Croatians and Slovenians", then "Federative Peoples Republic of Jugoslavija"
, and then "Socialistic Federative Republics of Jugoslavija". On the start it was formed because all these Jugoslavian nations wanted to resist imperialistic threads from Italy, Austria and Hungarians, and other countries, which wanted to destroy national identity. Jugoslavia was the only hope for all these nations, because in nother case, they would all be lost in process of germanization, italianization, etc. With cooperating, all these nations well defended their country from occupiers, which besieged them until the end of the, and even after it, they were dangerous for these nations. Jugoslavian nations had inside of Jugoslavia a big degree of independence - noone forced them not to be the nationality they are. As we know, Muslims were also an independent nationality from 50´s on ( although, Croatians and Serbians are Slavic nations that have Islamic religion). Jugoslavia was led by very capable man, Josip Broz Tito, which was not popular only in Jugoslavia, but everywhere in the world and in his times, Jugoslavija experienced a big progress. In the opposite of other countries that also had Communistic regime, Jugoslavija was never total communistic (As I found out, there were no Communistic countries on the world, a true ones). It is interesting, that East block had Jugoslavia for Western country and West block had it for Eastern country (read: communistic).

Main republics that worked in the direction for separation were Slovenia and after that also Croatia.



SLOVENIA:

War was started by Slovenia with disobedientcy to Jugoslavian government in Belgrade, and because of that JLA (Jugoslavian Liberty Army) forces reacted (For better understanding: Slovenia stopped paying taxes, and that means all taxes). JLA wanted to force Slovenia to obey the rules which applied to all countries in SFRJ. At the end, because of graduating violence, which Slovenia caused, and destroying suvereignty, jugoslavia tried to warn Slovenia with force, because Slovenia broke all rules there were laws for. International community were, at that time, all time on the side of Jugoslavia, because it wanted to preserve peace and retain SFRJ. National community didn´t want to see the day when SFRJ will fall apart. Slovenia made a coup, when Jugoslavian army came started to attack JLA buildings in Slovenia, Slovenia also teased JLA with (cutting of power, water, to JLA barracks etc..). "War" lasted for 10 days. There didn´t come to victory of Slovenian army, what a lot of Slovenians claim, because the ration was so unequal (example: It was just like an Lion and an Elephant would have a fight, then Elephant would leave, because of some other resons, and then Lion would say that he kicked Elephants´
butt. After a reflection, Jugoslavian authorities decided, they will leave Slovenia, and they will allow them exit from SFRJ. That didn´ happened because of Slovenian "powerfull" army, but because Jugoslavian authorities knew that there is no out for Slovenia, because Slovenia don´t have so much ethnical groups as Croatia and Bosnia has. We must know that in Belgrade talked about, not only of retaining the SFRJ, but also of leaving Slovenia out, to go on their own, because there were also present, Serbian nationalism, which "crossed" Slovenia as not important member of SFRJ. Slovenia infalmed a spark which led to wars over all former Jugoslavija, but the most incredible thing is that Slovenia remained almost intact. The biggest damage to Slovenia was done because it lost a big part of Jugoslavian market, which led to collapse of many Slovenian companies like (Tam, Peko, Pionir etc...). For that is, one one way, Slovenia guilty.


CROATIA:


War in Croatia was logical continuation. Learned with example of their neighbors (Slovenia), they also started attacking JLA barracks and made provocations, which led to JLA response. International Community was now still for SFRJ, but when they saw, that conditions in SFRJ are very serious and that nacionalisms are very high, they said:" Ah, this Balkans will kill themselves if they are together!
So let them be free,anyway, we won´t be able to save SFRJ now, even how hard we try to do that."
That is why they ratified Slovenia and Croatia as indepedent countries. Also because the horrors in Croatia reached world. Croatia helped Slovenia very much. Slovenia was because of its unimportancy not very important factor. In Croatia there was one big problem. Croatia had over 12% of Serbians in their country, which felt that they are in danger of getto-ing and that they will lost connection with their birth-country Serbia, that´s why they also revolted, but they revolted because they wanted to retain SFRJ, and JLA supported that. Serbians in fromer SFRJ countries tried to retain contact with Serbian, because they knew what would happen if they won´t (Same as happened with Slovenians in Austria, which are even now after almost 50 years, still not dealted as minority, which will lead to their "extermination", they will have themselves for Austrians). War in Croatia was conditional on wish of independency, same separatistic motive like in Slovenia, with that, Croatia had much bigger consequences than Slovenia.


Bosnia and Hercegovia:


War in Croatia meant a start of the end of the Jugoslavia (If we don´t count Slovenia). next was Bosnia and Hercegovina. Tuðman and Miloševiæ had territorial "needs" for parts of Bosnia, where lived people of their nation. Serbians wanted to join Serbia, Croatians wanted to join Croatia (In BiH, there were over 36% over Serbians). Only war in BiH turned International community against Belgrade, because downfall of BiH could lead to revolts all over the world. They hardly accepted downfall of SFRJ, but they could not tolerate downfall of individual republics, because other countries could get influence from separating of BiH, and they would say "If they can do it, why we can´t?" War in BiH was just consequence of territorialistic "needs" of Croatia and Serbia. From that on, war was not sate war, but international war (in Slovenija and Croatia there was state war.) International community achieved in BiH with thing, that they failed to do in SFRJ (International community, always had Yugoslavia for example for all other countries, how 6 ethnic groups can live in peace, that is why they wanted to prevent collapse of SFRJ, but they failed), but if they failed in SFRJ, they achieve that in BiH, they retained country together, although BiH actually collapsed, but not formally. The truth is, that BiH didn´t want dawnfall of Jugoslavia as Slovenia and Croatia wanted.

Kosovo:


Kosovo is a special case - taught from nationalism from Slovenia, Croatia and BiH, also Albanians wanted to divide from Serbia, especially when Serbians, which considered Albanians as a nation that has taken a "cradle of the Serbians"- Kosovo and banished from their homes, that is also very true, because Albanians were really untolerating nation to other nationalities on Kosovo even before war, and because of that other nationalities moved away from Kosovo, because of the Albanians nationalism. Miloševiæ wantd to solve Kosovo problem once and for all, which was threatened to divide from central country because of separatistic movements of Albanians and also because of too fast multiplying, which threatened other nations that live near Kosovo. Because Miloševiæ wanted to banish Albanians from their homes, and with that he made a big humanitary crisis, because of that International Community started to react, although they didn´t want to do that on the beginning (mostly because of Russia, France, Greece and Italy). Miloševiæ had too big ambitions. Serbia has shown in this war a big ability of propaganda war, which was well seen in Croatia. Miloševiæ also warned NATO about their mistakes and incapacity, which led to the point when NATO said that Miloševiæ is guilty of everything that happened in the war. But as a matter of fact, NATO is a big culprit, which instigated war and nationalism in Slovenia and Croatia.



Macedonia:


War in Macedonia was result of separistic movements of Albanians, as continuation of nacionalistic fights in Balkans. Macedonians, didn´t want to get out of Jugoslavija, because other nations would threatened them, but because of downfall of SFRJ during war in BiH, although Macedonia didn´t want to go out SFRJ, but Macedonians got independace which don´t really make them happier tomorrow.
From all neighbours, Macedonians "most like" Serbians, because they don´t have anything against their country, but there are a lot of tensions between Macedonia and Greece.

Monte negro (Èrna gora) :

Monte negro - was practically supporting Serbia from the start and suffered just sanctions together with Serbia, although Monte negro went pretty good from "Balkanian hell", if we don9 t cout Slovenia, which had the biggest luck from all of them.





Huh, I hope I translated it good enough to understand it.




For the end, I would just like to say something. I don´t aproove that Miloševiæ is imprisoned in Hagg, because, if they imprisoned him ,they should do the same with leaders of all nationalistic parties in Slovenia, Croatia and Kosovo. They should judge Bush.......

[IRONFIST]

Originally posted by titoman

For the end, I would just like to say something. I don´t aproove that Miloševiæ is imprisoned in Hagg, because, if they imprisoned him ,they should do the same with leaders of all nationalistic parties in Slovenia, Croatia and Kosovo. They should judge Bush.......

Well, i oppose that Miloševiæ is imprisoned in Haag because it is not fair that he is being on trial where there are only english (or any other non-Yugoslavian)judges. He should be on trial where he commited the crimes and he should be judged by those who'se families he killed. Anyway, i think that no matter what will be the punishment, it wont be enough!

[vorosilov]

Dear Ironfist, Titoman,

The war in Yugoslavia could have been avoided from the beginning.

[rikbe]

Hey voro,
Where have you been?

[Marxman]

It could have been avoided if my country SLOVENIA wouldn't be so ****ing greedy and if the Nationalists would shut up and be sent to Siberia.

[rikbe]

If every slovenian would be alike you, Siberia would be overcrowed.

[Marxman]

You didn't write logical, Rikbe

If every Slovenian would be like me, our country would already build Fusion power plants, light-speed spaceships, moon colonies, mars colonies, hydrogen based automobiles,...