Olympic Figue skating.

[Bon]

Could you define your position more exactly please. Especially I would like you to clear up two points:
1. Do you offer to remove artistic scores from figure skating evaluation?
2. Do you think that any contests founded on subjective evaluation must be removed. Or perhaps you only aim at contests involving prize money, prestige of countries and so (for example Noble prize, film festivals and so on)? Or your point is that this kind of contest isn't covered by the exact meaning of the term "sport"?

thank you

[Nebraska_USA]

Sure.

1) From what information I have heard, this process may already be underway. One scoring explanation I have heard for the coming overhaul boils down to:

a) A particular trick or skill, triple axel, for example, would be worth a predetermined amount of points.

b) A judges input into how well the skill was performed would be limited to punching buttons, "excellent," "mediocre," etc. Each rating would equate to a factor by which the point value of the skill would be multiplied.

c) The number of judges would be expanded to 14, their scores then randomly thrown out so that only 7 judges scores counted, to minimize the possibility or impact of vote-trading.

Whether or not that is the totality of the scoring system being considered, I do not know, it was just a short explanation I heard. I like it. It minimizes as much as possible everything that is and has been wrong with figure skating for a very long time - politics and national favoritism trumping athletic ability.

Remember that the French head of the ISU originally tried to bury this problem in an avalanche of doublespeak. He intended to keep the status quo. It took the very real threat of the IOC to simply banish figure skating from the games for the (unpopular here) second gold medal to be awarded to the Canadian pair. Call it what you wish, media pressure, mean nasty Americans, whatever. The fact is that figure skating judging has been due for a serious buttkicking for as long as I can remember. I am shocked, really, that it happened. The only reason that it did is money rules the Olympics as it does everything else. Lose your audience, even little by little, eventually lose your sport.

2) Subjective judgements are part of almost any sport you can name, and certainly every sport that requires officiating. Minimizing mistakes in officiating should be the goal of everyone involved in sports. In the NFL (professional football league), the game is stopped when a call on the field appears to have the potential of being wrong, and an official reviews the video of the play to get the call right. It slows down the game, it isn't perfect, but it has been accepted by fans because getting it right is of paramount importance.

But that misses the point. What we are talking about here isn't simple human error. It is human cupidity. Dishonesty. Cheating. Blindness based on national origin. Please note that I feel the skater most abused by the system was a Japanese woman, Midori Ito. Not an American. American skaters have done quite well under the present, and hopefully soon to be deceased, current judging system. It would be dishonest of me to state that the US hasn't played this game, they have, occasionally quite well.

But I have never liked it. I like to see the BEST, no matter what nation they call home. If that isn't what every skating judge sitting in those chairs believes also, they don't deserve their position.

[Bon]

Originally posted by Nebraska_USA
Sure.

b) A judges input into how well the skill was performed would be limited to punching buttons, "excellent," "mediocre," etc. Each rating would equate to a factor by which the point value of the skill would be multiplied.

Hmm.. sorry I am not a professional but it seems to me that narrowing the range of evaluation (at least so much) can lead to impossibility of any evaluation. I think the top skaters like Yagudin, Pluschenko, Kwan, Slutskaya don't differ in technique so much. For example I think it would be impossible to define the winner in the last women contest. Only a crazy judge could evaluate Sluzkaya's technique (of any element) as "mediocre". She was amazing in every skill but Hughes (sorry if wrong spelling) was better.

[Nebraska_USA]

Sarah Hughes landed seven triples, five in combination. She would have blown the doors off her competition under that proposed scoring system, based on the number of skills attempted and completed. To support the old scoring system you now have to make the argument that "artistry" trumps athleticism. To which I say nonsense. As far as I am concerned, if you can move around on a pair of skates the way the 30th place finisher in the Olympics can, you're an artist. Who wins then comes down to who is the best ATHLETE, like virtually every other sport known to mankind - maybe tiddlywinks is an exception, I don't know. If the skating dinosaurs don't like it, too bad. Ship 'em over to the Ice Capades, er, Ice Dancing and let them horsetrade to their heart's delight, which I don't watch and don't give a hang about.

[vorosilov]

Originally posted by Nebraska_USA

It can't happen soon enough. "Artistry and elegance," is a wholly subjective area which has been used as a bludgeon to keep incredible athletes, Midori Ito, for example, down, and elevate skaters of lesser abilities to the top of the podium. Artistic scores are permeated with politics and have nothing to do with artistry and everything to do with nationalist homerism.

Higher, faster, stronger. What's not to understand?

Why to play the music then? Let the skaters to come out and start to jump up and down. Doubles and triples. To make sure that they are judged fairly, instruments will measure the height and distances of every jump.

[Nebraska_USA]

My first reflex, Vorosilov, is to say, sure, OK, whatever it takes to remove the stain of politics from figure skating judging, but that would be allowing you to back me into the corner of defending an extreme position. Let me turn the question back around on you. Why not, if artistry is of such sublime importance, allow the world's best ice dancers to compete for the figure skating medals? They can go up against Slutskaya or Hughes, flap their wrists, flutter their eyelashes, and have an equal chance for a medal with the athletes who can twist three times in the air and land gracefully several times in a matter of minutes. An equally extreme position I don't think you would wish to defend.

Choreography and, yes, "artistry," will always be a part of figure skating. Where I and some I have read on your board part company is the importance that should be placed on what I have already stated I believe to be a wholly subjective critiquing device prone to outrageous abuse in the name of any number of less-than-to-be-desired outcomes. I believe, in the end, the best athlete should win. I have not come to your board and slammed Slutskaya's performance, she clearly is a wonderful skater and athlete. She just as clearly was outskated by a better skater and athlete, at least on that one night when it counted. For some on this board to claim the result was unfair is ridiculous, and I probably wouldn't have bothered to post my responses here had my countrymen not been called "vile" by a certain poster whose username honors a murderer of 14 million souls.

And by the way, Stalin, Apolo Ohno was just disqualified from a 500 meter short-track heat for a foul. How does that fit into your vile American conspiracy theories?

To everyone else here, thanks for the pleasant conversation, and if you live here in America, welcome. I know I speak for the vast majority of Americans when I say we wish Russia only the best and the utmost in success in rebuilding their country and society.

[skittlespeachie]

Originally posted by Mariboulg
All I can say is that even before the Olympics Canadians were convinced of winning the gold. Well, I still support the Russian team.

Bon, the Russian link does not work.

i think yevgeny is the best mens figure skater in the skating industry and also irina she's the best also