The deal with Fetisov and the rest...

[davlet]

Originally posted by Canadian_Wolf
I'm too biased??? Maybe I am a bit, but I have facts. "... you are too biased to answer you completly" is a load of crap. My statements we're clearly stated, and you have nothing of value to argue.

Many americans tought the russians we're better!? Are you crazy or do you interpret 5% as being much.

Nonsense! That poll was taken several days *after* the competition during which many of the newspapers were screaming how Canadian pair (whatever their names are!) was "clearly" superior to the Russians. I recall reading two articles in the Ottawa Citizen (a Canadian newspaper) the next morning after that figure skating competition. The tone of the articles was *nowhere* near what it would become 1 week later. The authors were disappointed that Canada lost, but pointed out that both pairs' performances were about equally good. And now after 3 weeks of continous exaltation everybody here is saying that Canadians were "clearly vastly superior" to the Russians. Talk about propaganda!

D.P.

[Edited by davlet on 3rd March 2002 at 08:10]

[davlet]

They Took Fast Easy Way Out
by Bill Plaschke, Los Angeles Times (Feb 16).


SALT LAKE CITY -- In a transaction completed on a warped and rickety pulpit, the Olympic ideal was formally sold Friday. The buyers were public opinion, network television and jingoism. The price was justice. The cost was integrity. The new owners will move in as soon as they can evict those awful Russians.

Two gold medals, for an event that had earlier possessed a defined winner and runner-up. Two more gold medals than pieces of clear evidence to support them. Two more gold medals than stomach muscles in the people who made the decision.

There is only one reason the Olympic arm pulled Canadian pairs skaters Jamie Sale and David Pelletier up to the top step of the podium Friday with Russians Elena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze. Because they were tired of that arm being twisted. They were weary of newspaper criticism in the United States and Canada, worn out from the screeching on NBC, worried that their games were being obscured by a fur-lined, bespectacled vision named Marie Reine Le Gougne.

This wasn't a cry for justice. It was a cry of uncle. By changing medal colors because of judging misconduct for the first time in 106 years of Olympic history, the Olympic bosses betrayed their own motto. Faster, Higher, Stronger? Weaker, Weaker, Weaker. They changed a medal despite no definitive proof it was awarded unfairly. They changed a medal despite no exhaustive search for that proof. Instead of carefully awarding the medal, they tossed it over their shoulders while on a dead run from an angry mob.

Said Ottavio Cinquanta, skating's international boss: "We have set, I will say as a former speedskater, a world record." And he's proud of this? Maybe Le Gougne did indeed vote for the Russians because of outside pressure, giving them the 5-4 victory. Maybe the event was indeed rigged. But she never admitted that, and officials have no firm evidence. She copped only to the existence of pressure, while signing a declaration that she nonetheless voted her conscience.

"There is a big difference," said Francois Carrard, director general of the International Olympic Committee. "It's one thing to feel pressure to vote for someone. But it is an entirely different thing if you vote for someone else. "She felt the pressure, but it did not change her vote." Then why did it ultimately change the result? See if you can't follow this triple-toe loophole. . . .

Under International Skating Union rules, judges must report all outside pressure before the competition. Using that rule, the ISU suspended Le Gougne for misconduct, at which point it handed the flaming diaper to the IOC. The IOC could have simply requested an investigation and kept the medals intact, a long but fair process that could have contributed to the reformation of a troubled sport. But instead, the IOC took the easy way out and just smelted another piece of gold. Said Jacques Rogge, IOC president: "I don't think this has created damage to the Olympic movement because it was resolved fast. . . . "

Hey, he's right. It worked. The mob relented. Smiles all around. The Olympics have been saved!

You won't be hearing that in many places today. Certainly, there is no defense for the sort of vote-rigging for which Le Gougne has been accused. Based on past figure skating problems, who could discount anything?

But it's still only an accusation. And even in this nutty environment, there still exists the concept of a fair trial.

It's not as pretty or charming, but isn't due process still more important than Jamie Sale or David Pelletier?

And just because they have a much smaller voice here, is it really fair to ignore the Russians, who will forever share their gold medal simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

When asked to guess his country's feelings about sharing that medal, a Russian journalist shrugged.

"Can you share a wife?" asked Nikolai Dolgopolov, executive editor of Trud, one of the largest Russian newspapers. "I know I can't."

While only two Russians asked questions during the hourlong medals news conference-they may have been the only two Russian reporters in the room-other officials were contacted later. As stunning as it might sound to those who have increasingly regarded them as invisible, they are alive and hurting.

"This is an unprecedented decision that turned out to be a result of pressure by the North American press, and turned out in favor of the fanatically loyal [North American] fans," Valentin Piseyev, Russia's skating boss, told Russia's NTV television by telephones from Salt Lake City.

Then there was this from Deputy Prime Minister Valentina Matviyenko: "It's a disgraceful fuss. The International Olympic Committee should get to the root of it and not allow American mass media and amateurs give marks to our skaters."

Oh, but we can counter that quote with a bigger hammer. "I do think it's the right thing to award two gold medals for the skaters," said President Bush. That should make you glad that he's the chief executive and not the county judge.

The question was asked Friday, what happens to the Canadian pair's silver medal? It should go to Scott Hamilton, the NBC commentator who led the charge to have it changed. Walking to the news conference Friday, he was openly congratulated by workers.

A special commendation goes to the media, whose undying support of this issue—hey, it's an easy column—was recognized in the opening remarks by Canada's delegation chief Sally Rehorick. "It's wonderful, the support you've given us throughout the week," she said. As for the Olympic officials who made this decision, they have earned more than simply a one-time award or medal.

By popping open a bottle of whines that will forever affect every event that uses subjective judging—from Roy Jones Jr. until forever—they have earned a lifetime achievement award.

As I was finishing this column, Sweden was in the processing of upsetting Canada, 5-2 in hockey. Upon which a colleague shouted, "Don't worry, the Canadians are going to appeal it." You think that's funny? I don't.

[davlet]

Originally posted by Canadian_Wolf
It was the biggest story of the Olympics, everybody booed in the crowd when the results we're announced.

Everybody? You mean Americans and Canadians? That's not everybody. Did anybody expect Americans to boo the Canadians in favour of the "evil corrupted pinko-commie-russkies"?

Don't you see how moronic your arguments are.

No. I see how yours are, though.

Knowing the RUssian media

"Knowing" the Russian media? I doubt very much that you know Russian media.

, who for half a century mad you believe in communism

The media that "made us believe in communism" has been gone for 10 years now. You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

D.P.

[davlet]

Originally posted by Canadian_Wolf
Russia is propaganda country.

No more than USA whose mass media dominates North America (and unlike yourself I can compare the two first hand).

THere is no way you would let yourselves be led by such corrupt politicians. While Canada's Politics are not the best, at least we don't let the mafia have part in the government.

That may very well be, but mafia has no political motivations and therefore has no need for propaganda, so this argument is irrelevant.

If they can do that, imagine how easy it is to victimize their country in sporting events.

Many countries do that. Remember Wayne Gretzky?

WHen somebody beats you at something you previously dominated, such as Hockey, Pair Skating, Cross country you just can't seem to accept it. Heck, you'd even find an excuse if a Canadian would beat Kasparov or Krammik in chess.

With all due respect that is very, very unlikely to happen.

D.P.

[Deni]

Originally posted by Canadian_Wolf
I'm too biased??? Maybe I am a bit, but I have facts. "... you are too biased to answer you completly" is a load of crap. My statements we're clearly stated, and you have nothing of value to argue.

But how to argue with you? Your posts consist of stereotypic and peremptory allegations like "We're we better? Yes. Much better? Yes" or "Russia is propaganda country" that bear no relation to the realty and so have no subject to argue.
About 5% of American. At least on Washington Post forum I've read opinions of some Americans that stated that among professionals evaluations had the same proportion as among the judges (5:4 pro in favor of Russians). Russians were evidently better in the short program (Canadians fell) and in the second performance we were at least not worse (due to artistic superiority and more complex program). Canadians skated their old and much more simple program so no wonder that their performance were "flawless".
About "the most corrupted" country. Last admission of the French judge was that she was under pressure to vote for CANADIANS since 2001 (see L'Equipe") and that she voted for Russian pair because she really thought so. Even if she is a born liar why we have to believe in her first statements and not to believe in her last statements. Only because her "unfair" voting was "evident" to Canadians? Only to Canadians I daresay. So giving the second gold medal to Canadians was at least too hasty decision.
Your allegation about Russia intimidating Poland, China and Ukraine is absurd and again reveals your ignorance. China has very little connection with Russia in politics, economy or culture. Ukraine and Poland are independent countries, now West orientated in their politics so why they have to be pro-russian and anti-west in sport? Perhaps it was a collusion? But on what a subject? Could you point me at a medallist from Poland or Ukraine? Money? But why Russians bribed judges mostly from "East block countries?". More reasonable would be to pay the attention to the Western ones. Only don't say me that Western sport officials are more honest. The way Salt Lake City got this Olympiad can't help to convince me of it.

As to Russian people that (as you state) only think what Russian propaganda say them. I am sorry to remind you that Russians are one of the most educated nations and off course more educated than most Canadians. They didn't believed in communist propaganda so much (it was one of the reasons of reforms) and they are not inclined to believe in any new forms of propaganda. your image of Russia as a country of propaganda is completely irrelevant. Variety of opinions in Russian media and Internet isn't less and often even more broad than in Canadian one.

Sorry it is my last post. You've shown yourselves as a person driven rather by emotions and stereotypic view of the world than by reason and real knowledge. You say that you have come here "to try and understand the Russian mentality towards these Olympics" and begin with "Russian are sore losers" and other stupid stuff like this. And I am afraid it is impossible to make you to change your mind by rational arguments. I am sorry of involving myself into this discussion. Anyway I am not able to convince those tens millions Canadians that think like you.


About words "punk" and "loser" adressed to me, a person you don't know, sorry it reveals only the level of your intellect and proves that I am right refusing to discuss any more.



[Edited by Deni on 3rd March 2002 at 21:39]

[Deni]

Originally posted by Irinka_ukraine_dot_com
Are you Russian?

Âû óãàäàëè

[Irinka_ukraine_dot_com]

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